Springfield Airsoft
General Category => So Go Airsoft Only Events and Open play => Topic started by: Supercell on December 06, 2010, 05:35:12 PM
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I need to announce to everybody that you will only be allowed to use .20g bb's during open play and any events. We will continue to chrono with .25's to get your FPS but after that you will need to use the .20g bb's. If you have a private party you can use which ever you party says they are willing to play with. But if you have a private party and say that anybody can come in to play with you then the .20g bb rule will apply.
Sorry to have to go this route. I have always suggested that people use .20g and not the .25g in the CQB. We don't want people hurt. We just want them to know they got hit. And .20g bb's do this just fine. In fact the 300fps isn't even necessary. But people want to push that limit and it is allowed by our insurance rules.
The reason we are implementing this new rule is because this weekend we ended up with somebody getting their finger broken.
I want people to come back to play and if their experience isn't anything but major pain and doctor bills this sport/hobby will suffer. I want everybody to have a good time.
If you have any questions please PM me.
Thanks,
Jon
So go Airsoft
Supercell
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Man, I knew those .25's were hitting hard, but wow. I am glad you are switching to .2's for everybody, there has been a couple games I quit out a bit early after some particularly nasty stingers. I think this will be a good change, kudos to you. Hope the dude who had his finger broke is doing ok.
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He is doing fine. He knows the way the game goes sometimes. He is just trying to let me know there could be a problem in the future with someone that isn't so understanding. And I know most every Airsofter knows there is pain involved.(at this level) We don't like it all the time and sometimes we have to take a break after it happens. But we all know when it is all said and done that it just happens sometimes.
I also think it will work out for the best. I know it influences me playing if I see someone with .25's that doesn't have any trigger control. I'll sit it out or make sure I take that person out first. lol
Anyway, thanks for the support on this decision.
Jon
So Go Airsoft
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How did he break his finger?
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He got shot at the event. it was probably a perfect hit or something but I know first hand that .25's are a bit overkill in the CQB. Especially with those close shots.
Jon
Sogo Airsoft
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Wow, what type of gun was the shooter using? That must have insane FPS to break bone, unless it was at a joint, then i can understand perfectly.
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The FPS was about 280 on his gun.
It hit my finger just right below the knuckle on my left hand to snap the bone. It was more because the bb density, which actually might have been greater due to the cold... that and catching my hand right in the right spot at the right time.
I'm sending some BBs to the collage, having a friend test temperature and density if they can.
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I'm still having a rough time wrapping my head around this. In theory the energy transfer should be the same, over longer distances the heavier BB has more energy, but these are close distances... I guess I don't play enough to know the apparent pain difference, but nevertheless, the energy transfer required to break bone should be the same? Is the thought, that this wouldn't have happened with a lighter BB then?
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The power in distance with the weigh of bb's is not different.
However the heavy bb's impacts HARDER than the Other, Which causing more damage. Theoriticaly!
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I think it was more to the way it hit than actual he BB most likely. I had my hand up on the mag well, so the bone got sandwiched between a BB and the magwell... no impact absorption. I was also wearing armored gloves... so it was a phenomenon that I can't even grasp ahold of properly.
The shot was fired I'd say 25-30 feet away... from down a hall. The guy who shot and I could see each other clearly. I know him, know his gun wasn't hot, so it really just had to be one of those one in a million things.
However... even if it was a .20 ( I know it wasn't though, I know they guy shooting and what he was shooting.) , it's possible the same injury could have happened.
It wasn't just my broken finger though... talking to Jon about .25's seems a bit much for such close quarters. There isn't any wind or weeds to punch through in Sogo's, so no real need to have heavier velocity bbs.
There was also a few scopes and even scope guards shot out last Saturday.
As Jon said, .25's can leave some nasty knots at close ranges. My hands are pretty bruised up and knotted on almost all knuckles I have from all day Saturday, lol. It seemed hand shots were rampant ... my team mates also sport many hand and knuckle hits. I know a few from other places that got hand hit as well.
That one shot... who knows. Maybe my finger bone was already weakened... I dunno to be honest. I wouldn't have guessed it was broke even at the time, but x-rays clearly showed the bruised bone and where it snapped. Just a accident really.
It's just a minor safety issue , and a bit of common sense that.25's are a bit too much when a .20 is more than enough to get the job done in there.
Jon just doesn't want to take a chance that any more such injuries occur. Even as remotely long shots as they are.
Hehehe.. I'm fine though... this is minor. Last year I broke three ribs playing outdoors taking a bad spill on a tree that was downed. That one set me out of play for a few months... but this finger, ha! Nope.. I'm still kicking it! Doesn't effect me at all. I even finished the day at Sogo's after it happened. It hurt, but was bearable.
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Ah Now I'm stuck with 3,000 .25's and I never play outdoors. ugh. I totally understand why you're doing this though.
Maybe this will make the game less painful. Like I tell everyone, I don't have fun playing airsoft, I just enjoy being able to say I do SOMETHING. lol
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is this rule for all guns including pistols? was that the kid that was on the ground that Glen came to help?
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no, it was me, lol...
I do recall one little dude fell, hit his head on the wall. Some other guys on the White Side was lighting him up... even though they were 15 feet away, and could clearly tell he was hit, and I thought it was obvious he was dazed and maybe hurt. He was holding his hand out saying he was hit...
I used my body to shield him, went to the respawn... came out after the shooters with a vengeance, only to discover they had bolted when I went to respawn.
He thanked me a bit later for sticking up for him.
It's just things where folks aren't using common sense playing.
If people are playing the game to hurt others... they are in the wrong sport all the way around.
There is nothing fun about injuries.
Sure, BBs are supposto hurt a bit. Thats the nature of things with airsoft.
That's where it should end though.
Save the .25's for outdoors.
( If anyone has extras, where you don't play outdoors... I will buy em off ya for reasonable price. Though I will note, I don't buy cheap grade BBs. though. )
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ouch what happend?
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Yeah I'll probably use them up sometime next year. I'll just hang onto them. Shooting spiders and stuff too.
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ouch what happend?
On me, just a absolutely lucky/unlucky hit I guess... lol. perfect conditions and such. The guy shooting didn't mean to or really know it happened.
On the little dude ( i never caught his name.) ... I'm not to sure. he kept playing I think, though I hardly seen him later. He was wearing a grey-ish hoodie and black paintball mask. I think he was fine, just fell and was stunned, plus getting nailed left and right while he was down.
I came up on him as it happened from a fire fight in the middle as i was trying to regroup with others on my team. Not sure why he fell, or all the details... just know he was getting pounded at the time.
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He just went to the ground after he kept getting shot. Instead of getting out of there.
Jon
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lol, that happens to. I thought he hit his head on the wall...
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why didnt they stop?!?!
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You dont call your hits??
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He was calling, in fact I heard him from a bit away that he was hit several times. I guess he just didn't get out of the situation like Jon said.
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The planets weren't aligned for him at that exact second. sometimes it is hard to hear and totally see if someone is trying to get their hands up but keep getting hit so they start getting down like they are going to shoot. And then add in the part where he is in the cross fire of another battle and just bad things start to happen.
I'm just glad people helped him.
Jon
So go Airsoft
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WAIT...
He called hit and they couldnt hear him and kept shooting him?
Did anyone stop firing to see if he said hit?
Is there any command in this or is it chaos?
Just wondering so I know what to expect if i come down there.
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Jesus... i have missed alot. Hey dragon was that the monthly event last saturday? Crazy I was there talking to joe and jon for a few... im surprised i didnt see you
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Black helmet with OD green skull on it? ... skull face mask?
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I found my answer, the same amount of energy isn't transferred, even though the same energy is applied initially. Inertia plays alot into this as a heavier object is less likely to be diverted from it's path, ultimately transferring more energy as it doesn't undergo the deflection to the scale of a lighter BB.
Also, here is an article that supports the notion of lighter BBs in CQB.
http://unconventional-airsoft.com/2008/11/13/a-case-for-using-12g-bbs-in-close-quarters/
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WAIT...
He called hit and they couldnt hear him and kept shooting him?
Did anyone stop firing to see if he said hit?
Is there any command in this or is it chaos?
Just wondering so I know what to expect if i come down there.
Without being there for that exact example you wouldn't understand what it was. First off he isn't a big kid. We have music playing through the facility. Sometimes low sometimes a bit higher. But this kid doesn't always put his gun above his head when he is first shot, or when walking back to the respawn. And that might have played another role in him getting shot at again. Also remember what I said about his position was not in a good place. Many places to fire from on both sides of him. If you don't get out of the way people will try and shoot around you. I don't like them to play that way but with that many people and if they really couldn't tell if he was out at the time. Then again we are back at it being just exactly the wrong place at the wrong time. And when one of the more experienced players saw what was happening he stepped in. And the ref reported it to me. And I checked in on him and he was fine.
So "no" it wasn't Chaos.
He did yell hit but I am sure with his full face mask on, the Music muffling his voice and not holding his gun above his head didn't help.
And yes somebody stopped firing and stepped in and stopped ALL firing.
And I can tell you there is Command. It is just alot of different skill levels playing at the CQB Monthly event. They can't learn without playing. And our experienced players really try and help out the Newbe's and lower skill leveled players. The guys from Ark. have really stepped up in helping these players during this event. As well as many others.
I hope I answered your questions.
Jon
So go Airsoft
Supercell
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I do agree with jon. No i was not there for this insodent. But i have been there when i had my "Issue" joe and jon know what i mean. One of my guys to make sure that i didnt get hit came over to me and stood above me with his gun and hand in the air to everyone that would come down the hallway to make sure i didnt get it. Its all about the lvl of skill with the player. To expect a new player to think about other things other then "shoot first ask questions later" policy is asking alot. Thats why single shooting in CQB is worth so much... and jon im going to tell my boys that they need to get rid of there .25 rounds k.
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Yeah I informed my team about the new policy. 'll do my best to assist in enforcing it with my guys.
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Shifty is sad.. he will miss .25's.
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Shifty is sad.. he will miss .25's.
I am wondering why exactly you'll miss them? ( Just in case I'm over-looking an important reason to use em in CQB. )
On another note...
Initial testing at the collage is going well. I'm trying to sort out the loads of data I've gotten, and trying to dumb down scientific and physics terms so it can be understood by everyone that isn't a scientist.
Noted though... colder temperatures do make a difference on BB density. There is a slight increase where the BB's density make them impact harder. It seems biodegradable are the highest density when cold, and the least dense when warm. .20's and .25 normal bbs seem to have an increase in impact or penetrating power when a bit colder.
The more "dense" they become, the less kinetic energy they actually absorb from impact, transferring it more to the target hit.
Though, I must say, at least by looking at the data sent, it's on a micro level of increase, so I doubt it means much other than being cool to know.
Soon, I've been promised a ballistic gelatin test... which I will get to participate in. I look forward to doing that!
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we all will... i know i will
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Shifty is sad.. he will miss .25's.
I've played against Shifty. He may miss .25's but he doesn't miss WITH them very often.
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i like them for my pistol because i dont have the fully automatic capability so i use the .25s to make my shots count and i know people will feel them
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I kinda forgot about pistols... when originally discussing with Supercell about the .25's, it was because of AEGs not side arms.
I bet Jon will let folks load side arms with .25's. The velocities are much weaker out of a pistol.
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idk i dont think he let me :/ lol but thats ok i just bought some .20s and all i use is pistol for cqb
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well i know the .25s are better for your opnent to feel them but to be honest i dont know if i would like it in the cold weather. I know i didnt mind in the summer one of my boys in his ak uses them. I use .20 because i was told that is the basic and standard across the board.
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ok gotcha
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To be honest I was very upset when I showed up a little over a month ago to an open play day without knowing the .25's had been banned and so were allot of my guys. We play field almost exclusively, so it's rare that we ever shoot anything BUT .25's and for that reason, I only keep .20s around for my 203's and hand grenades. Because of that I didn't bring any with me, but Jon was cool about it and GAVE us a whole free bag of AE .20g's! We ended up not even shooting up more than half of them with 4+ people taking from the same one bag.
I can attest to the .25g's getting kinda brutal in CQB. The first time I even went to SOGO, I played at the old Nixa location. One of our junior members had rented an M4 for the day, so you know it wasn't too hot. The problem was that we were playhing in the summer so it was blistering hot and muggy inside. I started off the day with my face mask, but with the heat I soon couldn't stand it anymore and took it off and just used my flackjacks. Not long after that I can around a corner low and our junior member was right in front of me (~10ft) and when I went to ask him to surrender he pegged me right in the face. It was like if you were to try to cut a piece of paper with a dull knife, the bb just caught my cheek and tore it open. There was blood all over the floor. You could litteraly see into my cheek. I managed to dodge gettin a couple stitches by keeping pressure on it and Jon's staff provided me with a butterfly bandage right after the incident happened. I now have a nice little scar from that.
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Thanks for the input. Another perspective is always good.
Jon
So go Airsoft
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Hey, no problem! I know me and allot of my guys are really looking forwarrd to the addition that was in the works. I personally would like to try it out pretty soon when it's done being built!
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Ditto!
I've missed each Sogo monthly for a while now for weather and funerals... can't wait to get back and see what's been happening.
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Well hopefully we will moving forward soon with 2nd building. We have it sitting in the parking lot. We took down the outside parts to clear the way for them to start it. But we are still waiting for one piece of paper from the city. Stupid... Never mind. lol
It will be good to see you guys back out.
Jon
So Go Airsoft
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How is everything going with that jon
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Dang, I really stirred up a hornets nest! Again, please let me state, in my defense, that I only had .25's because the store was out of .20's. I had stocked up on ammo the month before at the Halloween event, and I had to take what I could get. (I refuse to use wal-mart ammo) This was also the first battle where I got to use my new SR7 DEVGRU, so yes, I was on a rampage, but as Dragon stated, it wasn't a distance issue, since 25ft is a fair range of engagement. Stock spring on my gun was an m100, so I immediately had to downgrade to an m90 bofore I even brought it to the arena. My guess is the rate of fire may have played a part in the hard hit. Along with the light spring, I was running an 11.1v lipo, pushing the ROF to well over 30rps. Since then I've sworn an oath of semi-auto fire only, not just to prevent the liability, but also to keep from turning my gears into cheez-wiz.
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How is everything going with that jon
Last time I saw the foudnation was laid and they were begining work on the actual building. I believe Jon posted some pictures on Sprinfield Airsoft's Facebook page. I think I saw that they were almost down with the outside structure, but don't take my word on that. Look on facebook for yourself!
~Shaggy