Springfield Airsoft
General Category => General Airsoft => Topic started by: Dragon on June 29, 2011, 07:23:34 PM
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I was just generally curious about what folks had to say on the topic.
To kinda keep it from going haywire... I'll be more specific.
what traits should be included , in your opinion to make a great MilSim Op?
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organized
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Thats it? ... lol, not that isn't a really great answer, cause it is!
When the admin obviously have everything in order, and aren't scrambling around ... the entire OP goes smoothly. Bad planning and "winging it" usually ends up frustrating alot of Operators.
But I was kinda looking for a bit more feed-back, more details of things IN a MilSim OP folks like.
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Im just saying iv only been to a few games and the organized ones go very well even if the story to them or possibly the players arent great.
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In light of what we esperienced at OP Pheonix III, I'd have to say the caliber of players attending the OP can make a big difference as well as some very experienced people to do the admining.
Also, and I say this not to exclude the beginers, but uniform requirements. If you're playing MilSim you're doing exatly that, military simulation. Looking the part really adds to the whole experiene. Some guys really complain about that stuff, but honestly it's not asking that much of the players to have thier uniforms in order. It's not like they're asking you to all have the same PC's and all that jazz, just where they're at least all wearing woodland or desert or whatever you wana make the requirements.
Allot of people threw stupid fits about OKI6 requiring military style boots with ankle support. I'm not sure that they should necessarily have to be a miliarty style boot, but if you're playing on rugged terrain, it would be in your best interest to wear footwear with good ankle support to protect youself from injury.
A good back story can't hurt either.
On the subject of organization, make sure all the admins know the story well and are able to improvise, adapt, and overcome if things don't go exactly as planned in order to get the desired outcome, or at least do something if it's too one-sided.
Also, I believe if your team is gonna be representing some real life BAMF's, you need at least be better than the average Joe (no pun intended). Usually the guys representing Seals, Spetznaz, Rangers, Green Berets, you name it, are a very small part of the game but are usually written in to play a large role or have a big impact on the game and things don't really go well if you just have a bunch of back yard guys that make up those groups. Again, I'm not intending to hurt anybodies feelings with this statement, but I have several of our own OPs not go as planned because the decision was made to make all teams fill up on the 'first come, first serve' principal. Plus, for me anyway, when I first got into this game the idea of working my reputation and skills up to get on a special team made me even hungrier for the game and made me attend more OPs.
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@ metal, if you don't mind, I'd like to pick apart some of what you posted, and give my insight on it as well.
I'd have to say the caliber of players attending the OP can make a big difference as well as some very experienced people to do the admining.
I agree totally on the ADMIN part 100%. Unfortunately... Player Caliber isn't something easily "controlled".
I mean, first off... airsoft players do have to start somewhere, and if they jump right in, and try to go MilSim, even with-out experience, that says alot in my book. Taking that "leap" willingly, is the first step I do think.
Now, from talking with you and D-9 guys about the OP Pheonix, I totally understand the reason you tossed that out there.
For some reason, some "airsoft players" , go to these events, thinking it' s just another "force on force" or shooting fest. Their mannerism and play style are more geared towards Rec Style play, and it seems many of them either just don't know any better, or they have no desire to get with the program to begin with. I know that sounded a bit harsh, but it is just the reality of it.
MilSim however... is more than just shooting OPFOR, or seeing how many Kills you can rack up.
MilSim is more about ENTIRE Team based Objectives, Missions, following orders ... while there is a heavy placement of COMBAT in MilSIm, it isn't the only part of it. I tell everyone, if you just want to shoot at folks, come to our Triggerdays.
If you want to be MilSim, or go to MilSim events... strive to be more than just a trigger-happy person , with a CoD mentality.
(I HIGHLY Suggest subscribing to TacSim Magazine. You'll be able to read on various levels of MilSim in it, and get a better understanding of the differences between MilSim and regular Airsoft, if you are new to MilSim, or thinking about getting into it.)
Also, and I say this not to exclude the beginers, but uniform requirements. If you're playing MilSim you're doing exatly that, military simulation. Looking the part really adds to the whole experiene.
Uniforms are a MUST for MilSim OPs , especially the larger ones. Not only does it help YOU the OPERATOR, get into the "Role" you are portraying, .. it helps with things like, IDENTIFICATION of friendlies, and OPFOR , and that helps lessen frustration of all the players involved.
Now I did gripe about OKI6's Uniform requirements... but only because they were so SPECIFIC. I see after being there, why of it now. I Still dislike that some teams and special teams have Uniform Options, where it was difficult to distinguish from other teams at a distance. I would have preferred that these folks, had to wear something that really set them apart from the regular forces. Like, Neon Pink armbands or something.
Especially after our own IFOK Sided "special Team, in Desert Tiger stripes", turned and open fired on me and the Marines I was Reconing with the last day. They could tell WE were DCU ( the butt-holes) , but when they opened up on us, the marines thought they were CG-18 in Multicam, because they looked similar at that distance and sun rays filtering through the woods. ( Of course, we found cg-18 , or part of it much later. )
But, standard green vs tan works really well for most Ops.
Allot of people threw stupid fits about OKI6 requiring military style boots with ankle support. I'm not sure that they should necessarily have to be a miliarty style boot, but if you're playing on rugged terrain, it would be in your best interest to wear footwear with good ankle support to protect youself from injury.
I threw a fit about having to have MilSpec boots, yes. Not for myself, but for others. I have MilSpec boots. ( at first that Rule, did sate, must be ISSUED BOOTS ) and thats where the initial out-cry cam from. They revised it quickly ( in a week I think) , to a more generally boot requirement, but still folks weren't happy. Still, I thought any supporting boot should suffice, not just Military boots.
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I do support the Boots, with ankle support. Shoes cannot keep you from twisting your ankles. Shoes are not made for rugged terrain. Boots are. Keep your feet and body safe.
A good back story can't hurt either.
I think this is a MUST for MilSim, even if you don't have any LARP to it at all.
Players must know, what their Team is about when signing up for it. What the "cause is"... Why are they fighting?
In fact, despite the great Event, I though OKI6 could have used a bit more of "back-story", based on that EVENT. Too much was "assumed" you knew what went on previously in earlier OK Invasions. They did do a general "story" for it, but it really wasn't anything that grabbed anyone's interest much at all.
I have several of our own OPs not go as planned because the decision was made to make all teams fill up on the 'first come, first serve' principal.
I've seen this myself, even made this mistake myself before.
Such as BHD... All of D-9 barely got to be on the US side , just by luck really. Only because of all the +1s that showed up, were we able to get BenShee with the rest of us.
I too think, if folks are going to play on the "special team" as something than ordinary soldiers ... they need not only to have the right mindset, but also have the look and gear to match the skills.
It really buggs me when someone wants to be on the EOD team, and doesn't even know what EOD stands for, lol.
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Respect, Teamwork, Communication, Coordination.
People can get really nitpicky about how everyone looks, but I think the more important thing is how everyone plays and how they interact with their teammates. Back when SA played and hosted a lot of MilSim events, it was awesome.
I was extremely new to both airsoft and milsim at the time. I usually kept to myself for the most part and just followed everyone else's lead. Everyone kept a nice tone about everything. We were serious when we needed to be and then had a few laughs about it all afterwards.
I doubt I ever got much actual shooting done, but moving through the field as a team and communicating with others was really awesome. Learning all of the hand signals, properly reading a map, counting pace, how to properly communicate via radio, moving as a fire-team; it was an experience I'll never forget. I remember getting lost with dethwish up at a KCAA game and we just took a break on this log until we found out where we were in relation to the rest of our fire-team.
I don't think MilSim is about getting that trigger time in more so than it is bonding with other people that are interested in the same things you are.
I wish all that stuff still went on.
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Question: Is the highest level of MilSim actually being in the military? If so then I am on my way to be a god among mortals! Haha Just kidding.
Answer: Good Story, Obtainable Objectives, Continuity in team look, and Organization
Good story is important because it gives you something more to think about than just "I am shooting the guys in the green because they are in front of me!". Id rather have a good story than good players. With a good story all the objectives flow better and make more sense. You will always get more adrenaline going and be pumped up if you believe you are actually fighting for something rather than just shooting at people.
If it feels like you cant win or reach the next objective then you will give up and play worse. There always needs to be another way to an objective or another way to get around obstacles in the way.
Continuity in team look is essential for a flowing battle ground. For contractors and regular forces alike. Requiring people to wear things similar is a must. Contractors should be required to possibly get a team shirt made or make it a complete contrast difference in what they wear that you cant mistake them for anyone else. Even another PMC. Regular forces need to have either a Tan or Green cammies. Special Ops should have a precise cammie regiment. If its a yearly event make it a standardized regulation on each outfit.
Organization. We learned alot of "planning" stuff in boot camp. Supervision. Supervision is the most important. <-- A diddy we had to learn. It was longer, but whatever. Without organization there might as well not be an Event. Just have people show up to shoot crazily at each other.
~Shaggy
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Two words: AMMO LIMITS! Sorry, but I don't believe there's such a thing as a 5000rnd M4!
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MilSim is Military Simulation. (Obviously lol) So, making it as close to the actual thing is what I consider good MilSim. What does that entail?
The Basics.
Uniform requirements - Uniformity, you do not see marines going into battle in blue jeans and a dress shirt. National militaries have uniform requirements.
Gear requirements. -
Weapon requirements - You do not see U.S. Soldiers using Type 95 rifles from China).
Ammunition limitations - As someone said earlier. Riflemen should not have the ability to shot a continuous 500 rounds. Ammo restrictions should be set in place. Mid/ Low caps.
More in depth
Troop Leading Procedures. TLP's
- Warning Orders (Warn-O's).
- Operations Orders (OpOrd). Situation, Mission, Execution, Service and Support (Administration and Logistics for USMC), Command and Signal.
- Rehearsals
- Pre Combat Inspections (PCI's) make sure everyone has what they need for the mission.
Command Staff - interpret intel, give orders, debrief squads/ units after missions, etc.
Those are things that I feel make up the most basic MilSim. The more in depth you go, the better the MilSim. But Airsoft, is NOT MilSim. Airsoft is a combat simulator. CTF is not MilSim, its a game style. In my book, if you do not have uniform, gear, gun, and ammo requirements along with OpOrders, PCI's, and a Command Staff etc., you are not doing MilSim. You are just playing an airsoft game.
As for those who say, "Why do you have to have OpOrders, PCI's, Command staff, etc. in MilSim?"
The answer is simple. It is MilSim, Military Simulation. For those who are/ were in the military, how many times did you go out on a mission without knowing who you were fighting, what the objective was, who was supporting you, how you are going to execute the objective (the plan), what your job is in the plan, etc.? My guess is you went through an OpOrd and had a plan for almost every single mission. We are simulating the Military. Telling people the objective is to go assault this area and bring back a crate of something bad and then saying "GO" is not MilSim. People just run up there play force on force until they find the crate and then bring it back. No plan, no organization, no anything. That is just an airsoft game. MilSim is more than that.
My two cents.
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This man speaks truth. Complete difference between regular games and milsim, well put sir.
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I guess on that note, I fall way short on expectations then, ...
I will probably just stick to Airsoft and stop kidding myself about being an OP creator.
I thought MilSim, as Airsoft is concerned... is suppose be Fun.
Real Military = not Fun. There isn't anything "fun" about the BS you have to do or go through. I have been there and done that. I was in it.
Airsoft MilSim in my opinion is a form of exaggerated combat simulation. Everything is designed to engage OPFOR, Hold Positions,complete ( or fail ) objectives, and maneuvers... all of it revolves around combat.
Anyone can go out, and be "MilSim" getting the right gear , and just go on "patrol" with no OPFOR, as long as they have the above requirements met. You don't even have to have an airsoft weapon. Just get your orders, your gear, and go hump it 20 miles a day somewhere ( pre-desired locations) for a week with some buddies, occasionally bark orders no one understands but the CO... form ranks , and adhere to the command structure... and thats pretty much more Military Simulation than any Airsoft can ever be.
( to make it more realistic... try starving for a full two days, then eat crappy tasting food, make sure to sleep 1 hour every 22 hours. and go non-stop for 4 days at a time like that. )
Now granted... I try to keep away from CTF, and other obvious Force on Force situations when I can help it.
OP Thunderball 1 , was a success in the fact almost everyone had fun ... but failed in being real MilSim. I leaned on what I knew about Force on Force more than what I should have there. Was a learning experience.
OKI6 taught me alot, and I picked up on tips and learned some things not to do for MilSim OPs because of Thunderball, talking to Claymore and Frosty , experiences from MilSim OPs we've attended... and our triggerdays where I've played around with different things to do.
But , I can't justify being so hard core in Airsoft MilSim , where you can't get anyone to play at all... because requirements are too strict. It's definitely a fine line between... being "too realistic" and not Realistic enough. I would lean towards not realistic enough, and have had to to keep players interested in what I'm offering.
Those "hardcore" OPs ... are far and few between, maybe one or two year at most? I'm thinking Eastwind there in my mind.
I went personally to one of the biggest "MilSim Events" there is in the mid west. OKI 6, in the OK I series... even then... when you broke it down to it's basics... was more pure airsoft than it was MilSim. It was still a big wad of force on force. ( Despite that F on F , being from multiple teams at once. ) Players or Operators ( especially the more experienced ones) treated it more like a big Force on Force. I was given a mission by Claymore to deliver flares to our CIA Component on our side ( defending the flag more or less until it got there. )
I'm not saying you are wrong, not at all. I even agree with almost all of what you said.
But I can't write OPs and get away from F on F at all... I don't think anyone can... unless you remove all the combat aspect of Airsoft from the OP to begin with.
Experience has shown me... that you start getting too sticky with requirements, you don't get players... or enough to even do the OP to begin with. ( Such as in FP... I had to shut down the PLA , simply cause no one desired to meet the uniform requirements, and had a lack of interest cause it had more requirements than the other two factions. ) I even had to remove requirements from other teams, just so folks would start signing up. Didn't want to... but can't run an OP or Play one with just 5 people... no matter how good they are.
It doesn't matter if you put the effort into something great... the first thing people look at is what's required of them to do it, and if they got the money to get it to do it or play in it.
So knowing that... I at least, have found I MUST toggle that fine line I stated above , best I can, when trying to write OPs , Missions, Objectives.
It is in vain, if you don't get enough players or operators to do it to begin with.
Plus... players and Operators want shooting time. Hands down. Even in OKi6 ... the second most complained about aspect was, guard duty... no action for hours and hours for some folks. ( The first biggest complaint was the helicopter stuff. )
Even though Guard duty is more "MilSim"... we all spent 100 bucks plus. Those that spent 100 bucks, to watch or hear everyone else have fun for 26 hours, and they got action for 2 hours total... I think felt cheated in the experience.
Can't say I blame em... I wouldn't spend money, just to sit on my butt 3/4rths of an Event... no matter how realistic it seems. I probably wouldn't go back the "next time" either.
So, yeah... you do have to "curb" realism , and provide more opportunities based in or around direct confrontations ( combat simulation) , or ... players loose interest and don't come back. What's the point in buying an airsoft gun, if you don't get to use it right? Why play in an OP if you wasted that money on that investment?
So, taking the fact.. you simply can't get away from certain aspects, you have to work with what you got left over.
I do think Uniforms are a must, but I don't see the need to be so nitpicky down to every stitch, and if you must wear HSLD Underwear. ( I know.. absurd, but I exaggerated to make a point.)
Ammo Limits... I like those as well, as I like mid/low caps only, but players in general seem to favor the option of using high caps ... even if they don't actually use High Caps.
I like Objectives. I Like Missions. You can set up all the Intell you want to, write up loads of material... and when push comes to shove, it all breaks down the minute it get's in a CO's hands.
When it comes to Operators... the OpOrders, PCI's, Command staff duties... start breaking down , because they are only going to put as much effort in it, to get by on and get to where they can shoot at people.
All those reasons I stated , is why I asked this question originally. I wanted insight as to what folks liked and desired, that I could review and keep in mind.
I am trying to find that ground to stand on. I'd like to make events that blow folk's mind, be more MilSim true... yet be so fun, you got people begging ya to hurry up and do another.
But, ... I'm still searching for that "Middle Ground" that would appeal to everyone I guess.
All this came across sounding picky or something I took offense at. I did not just to clarify.
It's a great topic, and even though I'm still a tad frustrated over trying to find what will work for everyone... , I like reading the responses and considering everything everyone says.
The difficult thing in designing Events and OPs... you must appeal to a targeted audience to begin with, that limits what you can do with what you have to work with. That margin gets even narrower as you start making it too complex, or to difficult/expensive to make the grade.
I enjoy MilSim... I like playing in MilSim Events. I like team work, and thinking beyond personal gains in objectives. I like having clear orders ( another thing that OKi6 had a lack of was good leaders.Only a few had what it took... not nearly enough. ) , and mission briefings... ect, ect, ect...
But I can't make other players like what I like.
Even though I enjoy all that.. there are Events I will not go to as well... such as Eastwind, but thats because it' s too "period specific" and a tad bit to "hard core realistic" for my taste.
I do think... you can get too "realistic" as far as Airsoft MilSim is concerned.
I also think, you can get to "Un-realistic" for it to not be MilSim at all.
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I thought MilSim, as Airsoft is concerned... is suppose be Fun.
Before I start, to some people: more realistic = more fun.
I understand exactly where you are coming from though. Event planning is frustrating. That is why I stepped down from being an SA Admin. There is just no way to please everyone.
Anyway, I get what you are saying that you think MilSim is exaggerated combat simulation. I feel as though I have frustrated you by my post earlier. But in hindsight, you asked a question and I answered it. You asked what is great MilSim? Well, great MilSim to me is essentially what you posted... well without the sarcastic examples thrown in there. lol
Anyone can go out, and be "MilSim" getting the right gear , and just go on "patrol" with no OPFOR, as long as they have the above requirements met. You don't even have to have an airsoft weapon. Just get your orders, your gear, and go hump it 20 miles a day somewhere ( pre-desired locations) for a week with some buddies, occasionally bark orders no one understands but the CO... form ranks , and adhere to the command structure... and thats pretty much more Military Simulation than any Airsoft can ever be.
( to make it more realistic... try starving for a full two days, then eat crappy tasting food, make sure to sleep 1 hour every 22 hours. and go non-stop for 4 days at a time like that. )
That is MilSim. Airsoft is not MilSim. Airsoft is simply a combat simulator like paintball, MILES gear, sim-munition, etc. As the sport/ hobby of airsoft has grown, the noobie people began calling it MilSim because they heard it somewhere and like the sound of it. And then it caught on with the whole community. I just for one do not consider just having a uniform, gun, gear (dressing up) and having some objectives to be MilSim. Its so much more than that.
As far as OKI, I honestly do not consider that MilSim either. Even though that is what it's title is. OKI just seemed like a whole bunch of force of force disguised as objectives. The only true MilSim event I have been to is EASTWIND. And you hit the nail on the head, not every likes that stuff. Which is completely fine. 99% of Airsoft, Paintball, etc. players want trigger time. They want Call of Duty. They simply want to get their gun off and go home. And there is nothing wrong with that. I just consider "their" version of MilSim to be incorrect.
Here is a short, abbreviated story from EW.
Commanders Intent: Infiltrate Eastbloc territory and disrupt vehicle operations to assist other NATO forces assaulting the Airfield.
0200 in the morning we step off and do a night movement deep into Eastbloc territory (2 click movement I think). At 0730 we began recon on Eastbloc vehicle traffic from our Patrol Base we set up and radio in SALUTE reports to the CP, TOC, FOB (whatever floats your boat) for the next couple of hours. At 1000 we began setting up ambush sites along the roads. Moving our ambush site every couple of hours. Finally, in our 3rd ambush site. We destroyed a Unimog (sp?) (Soviet troop transport vehicle). Then as we were clearing the area a UAZ pulled up behind us with an RPK gunner in the passenger seat. The 6 of us all engaged the vehicle and killed its passengers before they realized what happened. After this ambush we humped to high ground to radio in the status of our ambush, but had some trouble contacting the CP. So we headed back to the FOB to debrief.
Total mission time: apx 15 hrs. Trigger time: about 1 min 30 seconds. Total enemy soldiers killed: 15-17. (I can't remember exactly)
That is MilSim to me. I love that stuff. Shooting for a min out of 14 hrs and accomplishing something like that is so much more rewarding to me than shooting my gun until my battery dies. Now, how many people would choose that over a trigger day? Maybe 1% of the airsoft population. And thats fine. Its not everybody's cup of tea. But that is what Military Simulation is to me.
As far as trying to run a "hardcore" MilSim Op? Yes, it is next to impossible bc people look at the requirements and say, "**** that" lol. The trick is to run airsoft games, Ops, what ever you want to call them in order to build numbers. Then when you have those ops and people are coming out to play a lot, bring up the idea of the MilSim game you want to run. If people are not interested in what they have to do in order to go. Then you don't even try to do the MilSim game. Only plan one once you have the minimum amount of players needed interested in what you want to do. Otherwise it will become a flop.
In conclusion, I simply answered what MilSim is to me. It is definitely not what everyone likes to do. Hence, why nobody responds to the topics I post on this forum haha ;)
But if you want to run an airsoft game and call it "MilSim" more power to you. I am not saying my version of MilSim is right or wrong so I can not say someone's version of MilSim is correct or incorrect. Because honestly, people can debate what MilSim is until the cows come home. But, my advice to you is, as an event coordinator you should find that middle ground like you mentioned. Come up with a game that is not hardcore MilSim, but is not simply just a force on force. Then you will get the best of both worlds and my guess is that if enough people like your games then your numbers will continue to grow.
P.S.- And as far as you saying you will never attend EW because it is too period specific and hard core realistic... I think the majority of people agree with you. But my challenge to you, and everyone the like, is to not judge a book by its cover and simply come out for 1 day of operations. I personally think that spending $20 to see if you like something that is extremely related to your "airsoft" or "milsim" hobby is a steal. And if you don't want to even try it to see if you like it... no problem. As we have agreed, its not everyones cup of tea. But damn, I do enjoy me a cup of tea (or hot cocoa) at 0500 in the morning after getting back from a cold and rainy patrol. :D
****ADD ON: I thought of this after the fact. With Operation EASTWIND, you are not just paying for an airsoft game, a MilSim event, or getting trigger time. If you ask the majority of the EASTWIND community what they go to EW for... I'm willing to bet that they will say the experience. The experience you get from the event rivals all others. Like the one I posted up above about our ambush. The feeling you get when after a day or two of patrolling and training, you get into contact with Eastbloc players. That are all in Eastbloc uniforms wielding Kalashnikov weapons (and in EW IV at least, three of them actually spoke Russian). The adrenaline that I felt when I saw Russian soldier maneuvering and screaming out in Russian was amazing. I have never felt anything like that in any airsoft game I have attended. The best way I can put it is like this:
You do not attend Operation EASTWIND.... you are a part of it. THAT, my friend, is what MilSim is all about.
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Well Dragon, I honestly think it really takes quite a bit of pretty seasoned players and honestly enough money to equire the things that make up MilSim. No one thinks lesser of anyone for having a goal and working towards it as we in D9 are as far as the OPs we put on. I think D9 is far ahead of where a mojority of teams are in our goal of all out MilSim. I think our first MAJOR step is going to be aquiring our own land to build on. Yes, it may be a long time or even never when we reach a level on par with MSE, but hey, it's a good goal to shoot for and if we shoot high even we fall short of our goal we'll still be on the right track.
Other than that, I agree with bgallion.
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I think only a very few players are interested in the level of Mil-Sim described above. I don't mind goals and orders but at some point, hey, it's a game. I signed up and paid to play a game. If I wanted the in-depth Mil-Sim experience, I'd have enlisted and been paid to do it.
Props to Dragon, Adam, Jesse, Shaggy and our other veterans who serve or have served and who play. Dragon served in the Middle East around the Desert Shield/Storm period. He didn't bring it up so I will. He knows "Mil-Sim" because he's done Mil-Real.
I've tried to stay out of this topic but the question's been rolling around in my head since I started playing airsoft. This is an open question for all and I ask it without nastiness or snarkiness:
If someone is really into Mil-Sim, then why not enlist?
After all, in the service one receives the training, equipment and experience of doing the stuff for real that airsoft can only (to varying degrees) simulate.
Thoughts?
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Well Joe Joe, I understand where you are coming from. And I acknowledged all the people who share your view in my post above. Its just not your cup of tea. You said you signed up and paid to play a game... yes exactly. If you wanted the MilSim experience, you would sign up and pay to go to a MilSim game. But you don't want to. Because it is not what you LIKE to do.
The problem with your question is that there are infinitely many answers. Every one has a different reason. Here are a few:
- They are still in high school. (They can't enlist)
- They are veterans. (Been there, done that, enjoyed that, now they want to relive that on an occasional basis)
- They don't actually want to kill people. But they enjoy the simulation of battle and the atmosphere of the Military.
- They like to challenge themselves. (Patrolling 2 clicks at night and arriving at your destination with a full ruck sack and everything is tough. And fun to some people. (Me)
- Maybe their goal in life is to raise a family and they don't want to have a military family but they enjoy the Military culture. So they get their "fix" on the weekends through MilSim.
- Maybe a friend told them, "Hey, you should come out and try this with me." They end up loving it but they are already too old to join the military.
- Maybe they are not qualified to join? Maybe they had a medical disqualification in MEPS. But that doesn't mean that they can't do MilSim.
- Maybe they are just too out of shape to join. Or they just do not want to get into shape to join.
- The list goes on..... and on... and on....
After all, in the service one receives the training, equipment and experience of doing the stuff for real that airsoft can only (to varying degrees) simulate.
First off, nothing is like the real thing. That why we call it simulation. As for training, equipment, and experience... nothing is like the real thing. But what if you do not want the real thing? What if you just like the simulation. In that case, EASTWIND puts on training events to better your skills so that you can perform better. There is One Shepherd that puts on leadership training events that you can go to. In both cases you get to use night vision (that's always fun and cool). At EASTWIND they are constantly bringing in new toys to add to the experience. Thermal imagery device is one of them. In One Shepherd, you get to use MILES gear. Basically, you get to do some of the fun and cool things that you can only do in the military but without actually joining. Thus, you can live your civilian life as you wish.
Joe, it comes down to this... People do MilSim because its what they LIKE to do. Its a hobby, and not everyone shares the same hobby. Just like you enjoy playing pistol nights and playing in the CQB. Wait, if you like to do the CQB and everything, why don't you just go join the Police Department and tryout for SWAT?? See Joe, it's just a hobby. An activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main OCCUPATION.
Does that answer your question?
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BGallion...
That was a fantastic answer.
Frustrated yes, but not exactly because you posted what you posted. ( it just happened to dredge up allot of what I've been facing of late. )
I was a bit sarcastic... I was really trying to more exaggerate the topic, but it did come across as sarcastic.
On the subject of Eastwind... it is a Event where I did consider "trying it out". I was gonna go as a day player, and reading some of the topics posted by others on it... made me second guess even spending the cred to get period specific gear. The icing on the cake was, if I stayed through the event... I had to live just as a soldier did during the off hours, camp uncomfortably ... and it just left a pit in my stomach ... like Joe said... I did that for real. It wasn't fun. I'm sure it'd be different in a MilSim event... it can't get as hairy as real Mil I know... , but It just didn't sit well, and was the #1 reason, I thought it wasn't for me.
And that it seemed the more hardcore players, kept saying that day players didn't get much out of it anyways, so I figured it'd be best I didn't go through it.
I MIGHT give it one shot though in the future. The way you described it leads me to think I am missing out on something in it. :)
I may fall short of the hardcore expectations, not only in my own thoughts and desires of the Hobby... , but as an Event planner. I'd rather folks treat it as fun, and a hobby... with in their own limits, and I know I must cater to a diverse mindset and crowd in order to be successful at it.
I do think, OKI series, is Mil-Sim enough... that it does deserve the title, it's just enough, and an almost perfect combination of the blend of the hobby of airsoft, and the hobby of MilSim. 600+ players/Operators seemed to think so as well.
Some may think IT is too hardcore, and not like to do that. I thought it was very fun, and I honestly can't wait until OKi7 , because I know it's going to be even better.
The bad part ,from your perspective or take on things, ... is that I don't think ANY airsoft avenue, be it titled MilSim of not, can get away from the F on F aspect at all. I didn't go to Eastwind... but I still think it was force on force, just with more objectives and missions tossed in.
( Your snippet sounded very awesome , no doubt about it. I LOVE Recon duty! I'm not a good "sniper" though, don't have the patience for it. Give me the DMR, and a way to get to the location... I can do that though! )
Just please don't think you discouraged me. I think maybe I should have waited to respond when I wasn't tired last night.
I really did need a more serious, "Hard-core" Operator's input.
I like your input and knowledge. I salute you for what effort you put into the hobby, and I can only dream of being so absolute in my own "version" of the hobby. I simply can't go that far into it... don't have the inner desire to take it to that level for my own needs.
I was in the Army. I did serve. I try my best not to brag about it. There are things I'd like not to know and forget. It wasn't just the "job" ... it was the entire lifestyle, and what you were ordered to do... often conflicted with my own personal morals and code of ethics.
I don't want to be known as "that guy who served" , I'd rather be known as "that guy who is trying his best to bring something fun, amazing, and wonderful ... affordable entertainment to everyone who desires it and NEEDS it in their life. "
I have my days and moments, but I don't try to be a "bad guy" at all.
I know, before Airsoft... I was very down, and in a mental state of depression.
I wasn't getting exercise. I wasn't being social.
All it took, to bring me out of that state, was ONE small game of airsoft with a small church group down in Siloam Springs AR... , and I snapped out of my mode, and wanted nothing more than to share that wonderful joy and get people outside and doing something other than... focusing inward, and not getting to experience the thrill of it all.
Airsoft and MilSim, might not be for everyone. Trust me, I've met some doozies out there along the way.
But for those that it IS for... it's so much more than a game or hobby. It is a positive hobby, that can and will transform your life into doing things like, bettering yourself physically, interacting with other people, and gives everyone something to look forward too that partakes in it.
I know it helped me. I have a blast with it! I've never been so successful in life before it.
And I know... if just One person out there, only gets a fraction of what I got out of it all... then the entire world, and that person will be 100%+ that more blessed, and have fun while doing it.
I at least .. try.
I don't get everything right. I'm not perfect by any means at all.
I put in the effort though.
Alrite, enough of all that .. back on topic.
Keep the thoughts rolling.
@ Joe...
If someone is really into Mil-Sim, then why not enlist?
Ya know, I can't answer that question. I've asked myself that before too... but I at least do know, the Real Thing, and MilSim as far as Airsoft is concerned... even though similar, are two different aspects entirely.
I honestly think, if you rounded up say 100 of the most "hardcore" MilSimmers out there, and they enlisted ( unless they've already served mind you, were are talking about new blood going into Military life.) ... 90 of them would wash out, most of them in Basic... which isn't actually as hard as it gets at times. Others would wash because of injury, or later on as they get into the more serious training.
10 of em, would probably feel right at home, and do just fine.. if not excel at it.
@ Everyone,
Everyone that has posted here, be it more airsoft minded... or more MilSim minded, is helping me achieve my goal to bring forth the ideas in my head, and how to apply them, so everyone gets something they like and desire to do.
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oh, BTW.. I've never played CoD... nor do I play many video games at all.
I like Zombie shooters , and I play Some RPGs on the Comp.. but I'm not hard core into that stuff either.
So, I don't really know what the hype is on CoD... lol.
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I too hate CoD. I hate ANY game that pretends that because your gun has a red and blue tiger stripe camo paint job, it is somehow better. Or that the physics of the rounds that each gun shoots is way off to the point that say the M9 is somehow more deadly than the 1911 which is completely the other way around in real life.
To answer your question Joe, I am more like of these guys that Bgallion mentioned. I enjoy the realism of the high level milsim, yet I do not actually wanna be out killing people or have the possibility of being killed myself. I have no doubt that I could serve in the military and live up to any task they challanged me with. I was actaully planning on serving as soon as I got out of high school but I talked of to my dad about it. He said of coarse that he hated the idea but would support me in any decision seeing as it was ultimately MY decision. He pointed out that I liked to think for myself too much, and the military does NOT tolerate much of that. He also pointed out that if I was too much of a free thinker and caused too much trouble that they could easily dishonorably disharge me and that would totaly f** up the rest of my life. My dad said because of that alone that I would hate being in the military. He then said he knew this to be a fact because I was too much like him. lols.
My little brother is joining the Air Force officially as of October 4th this year. My hat is off to him for that. He is going to have his school paid for and have the Air Force help jump start his life. He is actually considering a career in the military if he likes it. Honestly, if the job situation doesn't get better soon, I think I'll be looking into going into the Marines and just bite my lip while I'm there for the better of my wife and possibly my family.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts, gentlemen. I think I now have a better understanding.
I am enjoying this thread. Thought-provoking posts, all.
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I realized I worded something in a bad way in my earlier post. When I said OKI is not MilSim... that is not what I meant. Of course its MilSim. lol I meant to say it is not the level of MilSim in which I prefer. Is it fun? Yes! I just enjoy the EASTWIND level of MilSim more. And to clarify, my view of force on force is just fighting none stop (except to respond) for an extended period of time. That is not possible in EW. If you die, you die. You are "dead" for 2 hours (30 min for day players). In force on force, nobody really cares if they die. They just respawn and get back into the fight. EW doesn't have that so I don't think EW has force on force style of play. But again, its all up to interpretation.
MilSim is very difficult to put a single definition on. Thus, I think I have decided to think the following: There are levels of MilSim. My MilSim, may not be your MilSim, because there are levels. I apologize about my earlier post, I think I realized I was describing EASTWIND and not simply MilSim in general. But I do think that my posts describe what I consider to be "great" MilSim. So I wasn't that far off base because I was still answering original question.
@Dragon - I posted this question on the EW forums to see what that community felt about what MilSim is to them. Some of them described almost exactly what I did. But the following comes from Swayze, one of the guys who runs EW. I thought it might be of interest to you.
I have paraphrased the quote.... Question: What do you consider good/ great MilSim.
... Everyone being on the same page....
...Which brings me back to one of the core pieces of advice I always give guys who are trying to start doing Milsim somewhere. If you're area is "not ready for Milsim" do Police Sim. While it is hard for guys to really grasp an opord when they are not used to it or really get into the role like guys at East Wind do once they sort of "fall in" it is very easy for guys to grasp what it takes to be criminal masterminds and the cops going after them. Build engaging police sim scenarios with very small groups trying to pull off heists, move "product" from place to place, protect vital assets, raid opposing team assets and guys will very quickly get into it. From there, it's simply a matter of easing forward into more and more mil and less and less police till next thing you know, you're running East Wind with the same guys you used to steal "drugs" from.
His post kind of got me thinking. What I feel EW has that basically no other event I have attended has had is this:
Under all the requirements, look, feel, of EW. The thing that I just realized is that EVERYONE is on the same page. In all the games, ops, events I have attended EW is only one that I can say has accomplished this effectively. In your average games or ops, I have always had a moment of... wait, what is going on? What are the rules again? I thought that wasn't allowed.... etc.
Anyway, I thought his post about "Police Sim" might be of interest to you. Hope it helps.
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Mil-sim, to me, is the application of military tactics and strategies in an environment that does not involve life and death in the literal sense. What aspect of the military one scenario may simulate compared to the next is up to the people running the scenario. Shooting a lot is just as military-oriented as humping your ruck through the mud and brush for two days without a weapon in hand. Both take place in the military and both can be simulated in a considerably less stressful environment than the real world military.
What makes good mil-sim is teamwork, communication, personal desire, and strong leadership (both in-game and behind the scenes). My first experience with airsoft (note: airsoft, not just mil-sim) was in Rushville, MO, in a game put on by KCAA. Fever, Boomer, and I sat on a hill for three hours watching the OpFor through a spotting scope. We did no shooting. We just radioed troop movements and locations to our Command. At least one OpFor patrol was "taken out" thanks to the information we provided, and in spite of a horrendous chigger infestation I still think of that as my favorite airsoft moment.
Though I'm typing it out now it should go unsaid that capable Admins are just as important for mil-sim as they are in any other type of game or scenario. The people running the show need to be able to decide from one moment to the next what is and isn't working and adjust accordingly. If they put up too many questions to the players in the midst of a game then the players are no longer playing; they become admins as well. Strong leadership behind the scenes helps just as much to make an excellent game as strong leadership within the game.
My two cents on the matter: do not try to appease everyone. Build the scenario that you want to play. Chances are very good that there are others who want to play it, too.
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Vehiciles. i personally think that some of thelocal games should incorporate vehicles to some degree.
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Vehiciles. i personally think that some of thelocal games should incorporate vehicles to some degree.
The big issue with vehicles...
Official Transports, and jeeps, and APCs, and Tanks... don't exactly grow on trees for Civis to pick up. Surplus sellers of these, want as much if not more than a new car or motorcycle in many cases.
( There's a dude down in fayetteville, selling Swiss type vehicles, they are not even street legal for the US.
10,000 smackers is his asking price.. and they probably don't even run that great.)
They do and will add an element to the game or Environment of an Event sure. I love to see them too...
but, most the time, they just aren't practically available , unless your BIG in operations.
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@ BGallion,
I understand what you meant by what you said, and even more clearly now.
On Police SIM... I do have two Events I'd like to run, based off those actually... One is a complete scenario set up for play at the Bunker ( at the time), it may need some revision later. The Other is an Idea in progress.
OP Rapid Strike
(the Basics)
A Joint effort of US DEA Agents team up with the Colombian National Police for yet another assault on Cartel Controlled Drug Trafficking.
Columbian Drug lords , primarily the Cali Cartel has made a come back. The Cali cartels remaining members, bound together in a large push, subverting total control of the Colombian Marxists guerrilla groups.
While the Colombian National police and DEA had been chasing the minor groups and gangs, controlling production and distribution in the jungles and mountains of Columbia... the Cali Cartell, implanted themselves first in Mexico, then onto US soil.
Efforts were doubled by the DEA in Colombia , as reports of high end drugs were on the rise in the US, and for a time Oblivious as to how or why.
" We have fought this war for years now, thought were getting the upper-hand for once. It seemed though, as if every lab we raised to the ground, for every gang we put down... more and more powder was being distributed in our cities and streets. It didn't make sense!"
The Cali Cartell did in the US, what the cartels had been doing for generations in their own country, establishing hard to trace compounds, labs, and a highly funded underground network right under the DEA's noses, on US soil.
Eventually, one member of the Cali Cartel, threatened by rivals with-in the organized crime ring, came forward to the DEA, and struck a deal. The information he provided was key to locating and beginning to take the war from Columbia, to the US.
However, the Cali Cartel, always seemed one step ahead of the DEA, and none of it's ranking members were getting caught in any raid on any compound.
It is rumored the Cartel has inside informants in the DEA itself.
Unknowingly to the Cartel though, Nasa had secretively launched a Special Operations satellite, under the guise of yet another global positioning unit transmitter/receiver, allowing the DEA and CIA to set up a sophisticated and updated "spy satellite". The Details of this satellite, remain classified.
Armed with this next generation of of tracking and spying equipment, the DEA were able to locate Key locations, and push the Cartel off the coastal regions.
The secret Spy satellite, has now tracked the bulk of the Cartel Operations, into a rural, almost burned out town in the Mid West of the United States.
The DEA decided to act as quickly as possible, hoping to catch the entire cartel , in one rapid sweep of the location.
However, like almost anytime,... the DEA needed the help of the Military, and the DoD was slow on issuing any commands to deploy and help the DEA do so.
As the US prepared for a Rapid Strike , which became slow , and red tape laden to get off the ground, the Cali cartel got wind of the Operation, and decided to dig in for once.
No longer content with running, or playing Cat and Mouse games, the Colombians instead pulled in what resources they could from their underground network allies. A variable army of Colombian Marxists guerilla groups , along with the Cartel gang soldiers, and possibly Private Military Contractors , all holed up in the rural town, fortifying it against the expected attack.
The DEA wants to end this war on Drugs, and the Cartels want to make a stand, and show the world they will continue to do what they do, no matter what the DEA throws at them.
The DEA now has access to Military Soldiers at their command, and are now ready to begin their Rapid Strike.
Game elements I thought of
1- Location of this OP, as it could be quite large... I was thinking DDAY Park if we can secure it. It has the " town " and burned out look that would fit perfect with the OP, along with enough room and area to support large cast of Operators.
2- Teams Involved:
1- DEA
2- US Army
3- Cartel Members
4- Colombian Marxists guerrilla fighters
Thats about as far as I got...
BUT... it seems there is very little interest in "playing cops and robbers" in airsoft-land. Not really sure why...
I kinda had the same thoughts as above at one time.
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I don't know about you guys, but I've seen a lot of government agencies dressed up like SF units in Afghanistan. DEA in particular. I don't remember the name of their unit, but you can see videos on YouTube. They wear more MultiCam than the regular Army does.
Simulation of any kind, whether it goes under the Police or Military monicker, is almost always more fun that straight force on force. Having an objective beyond "capture this and bring it here" is all that's needed to peak my interest.
Personally, I love the idea of going in as a Contractor or Agency type. Many of their tactics are no different than their military counterparts, and the majority of them are former Active Duty personnel. The scenario described above is definitely something I'd be in to playing, should other details come to light.
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I am a fan of more "modern" types of MilSim or PolSim hands down.
Mostly because that's the gear I have and can easily obtain nowadays. Not to mention the fact, that newer modernized gear is more functional, with less quirks than your standard surplus finds out there.
I agree with Agents in that regard too.
I've seen them, with more PMC looking loads... I've seen em look like security guards of a shopping mall, in suits or nice clothes with protection vest on... lol, and even in various camo options in different areas.
The above snippet, is more or less just a "back-ground" story, which I like including so operators actually know what's going on. I really dislike... showing up for something, and they say... " ok, you guys in Tan are Insurgents, You in Green are Marines. Now Go!" , or This is a BlueFor vs Opfor event! <<< Those things just don't give you any reason to put anything but BBs into it.
Some players don't care much for LARPing the scenarios... I wasn't sure if I would or not, but after OKi6... the Civi interactions made me think twice, and really give it thought. Immersing oneself into the environment and game would add an element that makes it more "real" in my eyes.
So the backgrounds are there for Operators to decide if there's any element there that appeals to them for one side or the other, and gives some background info , in case there's a verbal communication of any sort between opposing teams, or extras included into the scenario.
LARPing in this manner isn't "forced" , but can be there if the Operators choose to partake in it.
That's about as far as I got though on the "idea".
Actual Objectives and Missions, would be based on.. Area of play, availability of props, and of course, subject to the scenario Teams in appropriate aspects. Meaning:
The Cartel sided faction, would be trying to fend off any opposition, away from their money, leaders, and "production"... ect. Possibly hit and run guerrilla tactics. the list is limitless. Just think like a Criminal.
The DEA would need to do Recon on the area. Find key locations and Key targets. They might decide to kill, or capture...
There may be Civis caught in-between??? Cartels like having captives to use as ransom to get out of fixes... maybe the DEA has to figure out how to extract the Civis, with-out getting em killed?
Again.. possibilities.
Not knowing, how many operators would like to do this... where it would be held ( no guarantee on DDAY Park ATM ) ... or any real solid specifics, it sits in my "creation pile" collecting dust.
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it dosent have to be the exact same thing, i'm just starting a m3 stewart build using a small tractor as my base. ive seen some pics and vids of simple but sweet conversions
As for milsim, i like it to be on the slightly casual side. gun restrictions turn me away from it, as i am not a fan of most more modern weapons. I am however interested in some of the WW2 based milsim games.
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See, now you're speaking my language. Personally, I've grown kinda bored with milsim in general. I don't have a problem with people that like it, but to me it just seems kinda boring. I've been there, done that in regards to hardcore milsim games and now I'm on the lookout for newer, interesting scenarios.
I think a DEA/Columbian Druglord type game would be a lot of fun, I'd definitely be up for something like that. Who wouldn't want to run around with a MAC 10, a straw fedora, and a Hawaiian Shirt? I'm up for Larping it up, lol.
Here a few of the different gametypes I've been salivating over the last couple of years.
http://www.nationalairsoftmagazine.com/biohazard.html Operation Biohazard is a zombie game with all sorts of objectives, pistols and shotguns only. Looks like all kinds of fun, however when I emailed them to ask about them coming near the midwest they said they had talked to several of the larger milsim groups here. As you are probably guessing, there was absolutely no interest.
http://airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=30012 Manicotti 2: Temple of the Moon Escapade is an all out adventure game. Armed with nothing but pistols, you gotta go after a professor who has been taken into the jungle. You have to deal with the local goverment, jungle traders, and mercenaries. I've seen the pictures and this looks pretty freaking awesome. If I lived anywhere near there, you can believe I'd be there every year.
http://www.codenamethunder.com/ This is kind of along the lines of what you posted, but on a pretty massive scale. One of these summers, probably next year, I am going to this event come hell or high water. US troops trying to shut down a drug lord, oh yeah!
Thes
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Thats me as well.
I like MilSim. I enjoy it more than basic respawn and and shoot at another group and that's all you do. CTF, I've not really gotten any of those to work right in any case, but seems more like a "game" in itself.
I do enjoy the F on F as well, don't get me wrong, because, well.. it's a way to practice skills, find out what your equipment can do, work out any kinks that might hinder your team in a MilSim OP...ect. Sometimes it' s nice just to have relaxed fun, .. and our triggerdays usually comprise mostly F on F types of games, because we are trying to get folks interested in airsoft, and see if there are any MilSim folks in that crowd that want to get to the "next level".. if not, well.. everyone gets to shoot and have fun, and that's what it' s about.
I don't enjoy being in situations where I'd be uncomfortable , to the point where the Event becomes un-enjoyable. That's why I stated, I can't or have the desire to take it to the level as Bgallion up there.
Realistically, I'm not THAT old... but at 36, I've pushed my body when I was young, suffered many injuries from the time I could walk until now, and I really have to pay attention to my limits and needs. I'd like to last another 36 years at least.
I Used to "survival camp" twice a year , until just recently. The past couple of years... the enjoyment was replaced by arthritis, bruising easier by sleeping on the ground, and not being able to on limited amount of calories and water, and shrug it off like I used to.
I will still do this stuff, but not as hard core as I once would or could have. My body is just on the verge of wearing out in certain ways ... because in earlier times in my life, i pushed, pushed, and pushed even more. I did it all, not knowing how it'd effect me physically later on.
So an Event like Eastwind... , even though I'd give it all I could... there'd be a point where I'd have to fall out. Have to. It wouldn't matter if I didn't want to,... I would have to, or I might wind up laying up for 3 to 6 months. Or longer.
Even at OKi6... I had my limits. I went back to camp when I felt like it.
Now, there were guys out there.. that tried to do some finger-pointing over it, not at me specifically... but scoffing in general at everyone who didn't " go hard at it all day and night" ... as if THEY were better than anyone else, because they CHOSE to do the hard-core aspect and others didn't.
To that I say this...
5 , D-9 members held the town against overwhelming numbers ( 100+ a least against us.) far longer than at any other time , when the town was occupied by any other force. I with the DMR recon'd routes and found insertion points into enemy territory for our Command. With same DMR.. I ate through lines of Opposition when it applied. I climbed up ravines, physically fit guys wouldn't follow me through. I did my duties just as hard as any one person out there did that didn't stop to go rest and eat, and poop!
When I was "in game" I put it all I had in me into it. So did my Team mates ( D-9) . Metal was on another team... but he also gave everything his 150%+ as well for his part of it.
My point is... I just can't do the things I used to enjoy that I did when I was a bit younger, and not prone to injuries. I can and will push myself, but I must "listen" to my body when it starts groaning, for if I push it too far... I'm down and out for a long time. So, I'd rather... take care of myself and miss out on a few hours of airsoft or MilSim, than to stay in and keep on keeping on until I'm down, and have to miss half a year or more of ALL Airsoft and MilSim.
Anyhoo, back on topic here a bit...
I also have the mindset that just doing ONE aspect of airsoft, be it games, MilSim, PolSim ... is severely limiting myself. I enjoy different scenarios, and events. I want to experience as much as I can as a operator and player. I'd.. rather partake in it all.
If that makes one person point his finger at me and say, " You're not MilSim ", well.. I guess maybe I am not, if that's what they think.
So, different scenarios like you posted there Det.McClane ... are right up my alley as well.
zombie games.. I'd love to do one of those, with taste and "quality" myself. Here's teh Inherient FLAW I see in those scenarios though...
No one wants to be the "zombies" and be shot continuously. Everyone wants to play the part of the "un-infected". can't say I blame anyone in that department... so if there was away to figure out how to over-come that flaw... I'd try to put up something like the Biohazard thing there.
Is it "MilSim" ... I dunno. Don't care... it could be fun, and if quality was put into it ... you could still have structure, and command, and missions inserted into it. maybe not Milsim exactly, but it doesn't have to be entirely "just a game either".
The temple scenario.. again, looks fun. I bet the environment there is amazing!
Dunno how I'd pull that one off either though.
I kinda do like the "Drug Lord" types of avenues as well. First and foremost, it's Modern more or less. It' s stuff we all see and hear on the news. We can see ourselves in those situations, and there is literally tons of information and no ends to subject matter be it real life stuff, or fiction. Maybe it isn't "MilSim" either.. not in the sense of Military vs Military at any rate.
Playing Army is cool. Playing everything else, with that as well... in my eyes is even more fun and 'cooler".
Those are the reasons I say.. I can't get so "hard-core". I want to stay diverse.
@Netshark
As for milsim, i like it to be on the slightly casual side.
<< I too enjoy some relaxed "MilSim" events with less restrictions. Most of our Events are this way by default. Mostly cause we are trying to attract more folks into the hobby, with-out breaking the bank.
I've tried to get more "restrictive" on things like ammo counts, and using Casualty Collection Points( CCPs), instead of respawn, with stricter MED rules to enhance the game environment and play, as opposed to restricting because of this gear, or that weaponry. The one time I put in extra Uniform requirements, has crippled OP FP in player counts so far. I since then, lessened those requirements.
gun restrictions turn me away from it, as i am not a fan of most more modern weapons. I am however interested in some of the WW2 based milsim games
On that matter, I'm just the opposite. I really don't like many of the WW2 era weapons... and the very few I do like, seem to be in boneyards and not so well made ( or can't get in the US anymore it seems.).
Plus, WW2 events usually involve Joint Forces, VRS german/nazi type of things... and I don't like seeing folks wearing "SS" stuff, or sporting Nazi symbols. Even if it's "fiction"... I think it's disrespectful, and very bad taste.
It's an easy "war" to pull information from, and I think everyone knows at least a little bit about it... so it's popular in that regard, cause folks can relate to the war itself. I myself though... I'm still a more modern era lover.
If I really wanted to go Historical .. in airsoft... I'd like to be able to do a "Wild West" , outlaws, bandits, train robbers, gangs of cowboys, and the sheriffs, marshals, and bounty-hunters duking it out in an old town, and around it in the surrounding land. Ya know.. gun fighters, and all that stuff.
But 4 things there...
1 - there aren't really any airsoft weapons designed from that era.
2- I am NOT riding any horses or farm animals.
3- I am NOT going to wear a cowboy hat. ( I look bad enough in a boonie, much less a stupid big hat.)
4- They didn't wear EyePro back then... might seem a bit out of place.
I still consider Desert Storm or around that time frame "Modern" , such as OP Irene... it wasn't that long ago. It's still period specific, but not so bad really.
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If I really wanted to go Historical .. in airsoft... I'd like to be able to do a "Wild West" , outlaws, bandits, train robbers, gangs of cowboys, and the sheriffs, marshals, and bounty-hunters duking it out in an old town, and around it in the surrounding land. Ya know.. gun fighters, and all that stuff.
But 4 things there...
1 - there aren't really any airsoft weapons designed from that era.
2- I am NOT riding any horses or farm animals.
3- I am NOT going to wear a cowboy hat. ( I look bad enough in a boonie, much less a stupid big hat.)
4- They didn't wear EyePro back then... might seem a bit out of place.
actually there are a few airsoft weapons from that area. and i was interested in it myself
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i actually signed into the Army july 15th, active duty 11X, i leave for basic jan. 31st. << This guy is excited
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I would like to have gone to EW last year, but things just didn't work out for me to go. [Deleted by SA Admin] [Swayze] got on to my team leader at OKI6 for driving around a Land Rover that was blue because we were PMC's. He said that we should've been driving some kind of military vehichle or at least painted it cammo, OD, or covered it with a cammo net. Problem is with that is that real PMC's drive Land/Range Rovers and they specifically DON'T want them to look like military vehichle, so in that aspect is was TOTALY in the wrong. Also he expected certain teams to almost provide a tactical nuke to be worth anything. He was basically trying to teat down the elaborate system of OKI into a giant force on force game. [Deleted by SA Admin]
I could very well be wrong about Swayze. I'm not going to write him off seeing as I've never been to EW or personally plaid along side him or talked with him in person and I'm willing to continue to keep an open mind. [Deleted by SA Admin]
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that is that real PMC's drive Land/Range Rovers and they specifically DON'T want them to look like military vehichle
Not to mention, they usually have armored versions of these vehicles, especially in areas where combat is precedent.
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Official Transports, and jeeps, and APCs, and Tanks... don't exactly grow on trees for Civis to pick up.
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I for sure thought you said Civic... kinda was confused there. Didnt realize civics were in milsims... lol. Anyways i have not gone on any acual milsims but have thought about it. I would have to take in account time frame(era) of op and what guns should be allowed... i mean just my opinion... im sure thats already been mentioned. I mean no offense but if you had a modern day milsim and someone came in with a tompson m1a1 or chic typer ... how would that work... Or if we did a wwII milsim... would people bring there m4's? Also one last thing... if we did a slightly future one and someone has the Marine Pulse Rifle Kit... would this be allowed? I mean these are just my thoughts... how far does the rabbit hole go on the rules and regulations of a milsim?
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Civi= Civilian. 8)
That's a matter of opinion really, on what's allowed.
Some MilSim Events want ya to have matching gear, guns, and and totally period correct. If you bring a Tommy gun to something more Modern, I doubt that would make much difference, especially if your squad all had Tommy guns.
Some don't matter so much.
I think when ya get into obscure things, such as a Pulse Rifle, or one of the "Fish guns" JG made...,
Those probably would get alot of odd looks in MilSim... unless the MilSim was already set "futuristic".
Kinda like... the helmets in Starship Troopers, I've been searching for one high and low ( Authentic version.). I'd actually use that thing when I could. Might not be appropriate for every Event though.
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considering tommys are found in insurgent caches i think you could go opfor with a tommy :D
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I knew about the civi thing bro. I was just laughing cause i mis-read it thats all. But that does make a good point though. I dont know why someone would bring that stuff to a milsim