Springfield Airsoft
General Category => General Airsoft => Topic started by: Brendon on November 19, 2011, 08:16:59 PM
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I just felt like bringing it up. Not sure why. But I hate how people have that misconseption. Like how airsoft is about pain. -__-
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LOVE THE PAIN!!! and this is true in fact to a degree depending on bb weight it can decrease the range in some special cases.
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some ppl just cant take a hit lol :P
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LOVE THE PAIN!!! and this is true in fact to a degree depending on bb weight it can decrease the range in some special cases.
You both are right, more FPS has the power to send a heavier bb farther but if you are using a lighter bb it will catch air and not go as far but still have the same muzzle velocity. The same concept applies to real combustable ammunition.
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but real ammo is aerodynamic and airsoft bbs are not so they don't hit terminal velocity as easily because the break up the air flow.
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Most dependd on hopup, nub, and bucking, it has a big effect.
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The common misconception is that distance is TOTALLY determined by FPS... but the FPS ( or joules) is only a part of a whole that effects the distance factor , per weight of the BB being shot.
What "sells" is "higher FPS" ratings... unfortunately. People, especially the inexperienced,... see " 400+ FPS " ratings, and mentally equate that as being a "superior" gun aspect.
I've even noted where more experienced operators, will make the mistake of, tossing in a m130+ into an AEG, thinking, their shots will go farther longer.
We know, given a "standard" set up... normal torque motor, and gears, standard bucking, and barrels... this simply isn't the case. Not only, are they confused and disappointed as to why their "upgrade" didn't have the results they desired... , performance of a stronger spring, means slower responses on trigger contact, motor working harder... faster draining batteries, ect... none of which equals any kind of DISTANCE.
Higher FPS, such as in a DMR or Sniping Rifle ... usually is custom designed to "push" heavier weight BBs , at or beyond the "distance" a "normal" or Standard grade AEG would be able to perform. Heavier BBs, carry a higher momentum ( kinetic energy) far longer than a light one does, but only really shines in cases of wind or heavy brush factors usually. But, it takes some "fine tuning" to gain most excellent PERFORMANCE even out of one of these platforms.
One thing, I like to do for myself... is to get the FPS as LOW as I can, to generally get a .25 to the distance I desire. I take that a step farther, and I am more worried about ACCURATE DISTANCE ... that is, at what distance I can aim the AEG, and it still hit the Target... RELIABLY. I'm sure , I target most OPFOR between 75-120 feet , which is a reasonable accuracy distance inside the 250-300 Maximum distance such a light BB will travel outside anyways.
TM brand AEGs, really had a great "idea" , when they offered top performance, with a 300 FPS limit.
Honestly, the only drawback to this concept ( as they do it) is usually a "slower" traveling shot... even though it goes out just as far as it's American or other "clone" counterparts that DO shoot at a higher FPS rating. Theoretically ( cause it's subjective) , TMs have a nice accuracy... meaning you can hit where you aim, inside it's "hop-up" arc inside that distance.
The "trade off" is a slower traveling .25 ( as compared to .2s that is used in the areas TMs were made it, to stay under the "joules" limits set by their laws. ) , where as at some distances... you can see the shot coming, and simply side step it... or keep moving out of it' s path.
Still, the FPS "limit" there has less to do with accurate distance, than what folks "think". A slightly higher FPS, simply means, a BB will travel a bit faster along it' s "arc".
There are ways to "improve" that though here in the US...
like Airseal, Airseal, Airseal! ... The more "focused" air you can put behind the BBs, the More kinetic energy you got rocking in that BB as it flies out the barrel. Tighten the bore, even only slightly... again a more "focused" airflow ...
Combo that with nice hop up, and great performing bucking ( for straight spin , to make the BB spin upwards a bit) ... and the same weight of BBs will fly just as far, and alot straighter , a TAD bit faster. It may, or may not be so great as to be highly effective, or noticeable... but I can say on my guns, it has been.
Now , there is SOME factor of FPS, that does effect distances... but, I think... again, it has to be an "over-all" combo, depending on the desire of the USE of the platform being operated to begin with.
Many things, FPS included, in Airsoft... is highly dependent on the situation, or intended use of.
I for one, think, for what you are ATTEMPTING to achieve, or push and AEG to do, you can get too much FPS ... that will decrease desired performance in many instances.
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As Dragon said above. Very informative sir. Seriously, have you ever thought of a book?
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FPS is a velocity not joules?
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FPS is a velocity not joules?
Joules, as far as I know... ( keep in mind I'm not a physic major, lol ) is simply another "measurement" type. Such as... how hard it impacts as well. There are other factors I'm sure... but unless you are playing in Japan, I don't see any real reason to study and pick apart Joules concepts here in the USA.
I think it tries to encompass FPS in it's formula ( how fast a BB comes out of the barrel ) , but has other factors as well.
FPS is simply the speed of a BB of a given weight as it exits the barrel. FPS is a measurement of speed only, has nothing to do with how much energy transfer there is.
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Books? Lol, heavens no...
I write enough for you guys.
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Honestly, what I am saying above, is layman's experience... I experimented, or others I know, had done experiments to try and get better "results" or "performance" out of their AEGs. It takes a good amount of comparison, and practical use to find out these things alot of times.
The thing is... and this is the important parts:
No 2 AEGs are alike, even of the same brand. They will have general common traits, but one right next to the other, from the same line ... one will shine where the other doesn't, and the other way around as well on different aspects. Each one has it's own "personality" or quirks to it.
Again, everything is subjective on how you try and use it ( or intend to use it) ...
A "speed build" , or HROF AEG, has different "elements" that make up the result. It will differ greatly, that a "standard velocity" field primary, in application, and intended use. It varies Vastly from a High Torque, High Power shooting AEG.
A DMR , has a different " intended use" ...
A LMG or support weapon, also has a "intended use".
I've honed what I need, from practicality standpoint, and to do it as CHEAP as possible.
My way , might not even be the "best way" ... but it works for me... on a personal basis.
That in itself, lies the true "difference" ... YOU ( general you ) might desire more or less than I do, or want different results.
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but real ammo is aerodynamic and airsoft bbs are not so they don't hit terminal velocity as easily because the break up the air flow.
Stupid non aerodynamic bbs! I should have known, thanks for pointing that out.
P.S.: FPS measures speed and velocity but Joules measures energy. I do know why Dragon associated FPS with Joules though, to find the energy of an object you must know it's average speed or muzzle velocity in our case. So yes you are both right (I know this one for sure because my major is in science and pyschyology).
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To think that FPS would not grant farther range is crazy. If you shot two identical guns, with indentical weight BB's, the hopup off, but one was shooting 300fps and the other was shooting 400fps, the gun that shoots hotter is simply going to send BB's farther due to higher speed and higher potential energy of the BB. Here's some proof. Take the SA outdoor game that took place in October. D9 is primarily a field or outdoor playing team so we have mostly field rated guns, and we went up agains allot of guys that regularly play at SoGo. Allot of those guys brought out their SoGo guns and were dramatically outranged buy us on D9. It was bad enough that for the actual scenario OP, D9 was placed by themselves against everyone else. Also, my AK74U was shooting about 360fps with an M100 spring when I went to MSE's M4L. I got decent range, but not as far as I'd liked. I threw the original factory M110 back in and I'm obviously shooting at a hotter velocity and am now getting more range. The only thing I changed in the gun was the velocity.
That being said though, higher velocity should NOT be the total focus when you're wanting to gain range. As Chucky stated, the hopup system has probably the most to do with range than anything in an AEG. We at D9 are quickly learning that the hopup system in the AK variants are some of if not THE best that is availible to us. We had a triggerday just yesterday where I was using my AK74U with an inner barrel only around 10" long and I was ranging out there right along with a KWA SR10 with a Madbull Black Python 510mm(20") barrel and Promethius bucking. Also BlackieChan from a group in Fayeteville was there with his CYMA MP5 that was ranging pretty close to me as well. For some reason the M16/M4 series has a mediocre hopup that seems to be less effective. Also we're all buying up G&G green buckings over all others for their accuracy, consistancy, and range.
Dragon is right about airseal to a point. You have to remember that when you upgrade you're airseal, you're also increasing you velocity due to less air being lost. So agian, the added velocity is giving more range.
In AEG's barrel length CAN but won't always effect range. The supposed 'rule of thumb' is that the longer barrel will grant more range. The problem allot of guys run into is adding a longer barrel without making sure they're compression the right volume of air in their cylinder to be able to push the BB all the way out the barrel before the 'cycle' is cmplete and unfortunately creates negative pressure commonly called 'suck back'. That will KILL range AND velocity. Also, a tighter bore is not always better. Allot of guys that have been airsmithing for around 10 years all agree in the idea that the BB needs somewhat of a 'cushion' of air around the BB as is travels down the bore. Being tighter to the point of 6.01-6.02's can cause feeding jams and tend to allow the BB to 'bounce' around inside the barrel during it's travel and cause it to spin off center from what the hopup made it spin. This will cause more of a 'cone' effect or those random 'flyers'. I can attest to the fact that there ARE exceptions to that theory as I've had and seen personally some pretty darn good 6.01's, but almost always a good 6.03-6.04 will have better LONG RANGE accuracy than the really tight bore barrels.
It's simple physics. A bb traveling at a slower speed than an identical one cannot travel as far. Also a lighter BB traveling at the same velocity as a heavier one cannot go the same distance (in the same gun with same hopup and barrel). Just remember before you try and start giving examples of why FPS supposedly doesn't equal range, make sure you're comparing 'apples to apples' and not 'apples and oranges' if you get what I'm saying.
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fps only grants farther range to a point to copare 300 fps to 400 fps with same bbs and no hop up is not quite what were talking about at least for me anyways
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Then you should specify what you're talking about. I was simply breaking it down and showing an honest comparison with ALL things alike to be comparing 'apples to apples' and not 'apples to oranges'. And if you read my entire post you'd see that I pointed out like Chucky that hopup was easily the key componant in range for an AEG.
You can't expect to make a logical and scientific conclusion on this subject by taking an AK74 and an M4A1 out and seeing which one shoots farther with them shooting at different velocities, having different barrel lengths, different cylinder set ups, different hopup chambers, and different buckings. Once more, even if they did shoot the same velocity the experiment would be flawed. So in conclusion HAVE to do as I mentioned in my first post to get an honest conslusion.
Don't get me wrong here though, I'm not trying to say that FPS is THE thing that's going to add range. It's simply not. Yeah, it will add a little or allot depending on how much you raise it and the gun setup that you're using. But as Chucky and I said, it's the hopup. I've seen guns have nubs or spacers that were too big causeing the BB to curve up when the hopup was supposedly off. I've also seen the opposite in having a nub too small and a gun pushing 350fps with a .20g shooting .20g's can't hardly get the BB's to fly straight with the hopup all the way up. Also, the BUCKING. The problem here is people getting buckings that are too hard of too soft to pair with the velocity that their gun is shooting. Obviously if you're shooting a true DMR that is well over 400fps, a harder bucking is usually needed to keep the faster flying BB's from tearing the softer bucking as the BB goes throught the hopup chamber. But if you put a hard bucking in lower velocity guns, they seem to be less consistant, can't be fine tuned as well, and can cause 'over hop' easily. Again, that doesn't always happen, but a majority of the time it does especially by not being able to be fine tuned as easily. I've seen dramatic range gain in guns by simply changing the bucking from the stock one to an aftermarket one. For instance, I changed the bucking in my CYMA AK74 to a G&G green bucking and instantly gained at least 20yds (60ft). The results aren't always that dramatic and sometimes are better.
I say if you're going for range, look into your hopup FIRST. Get a GOOD bucking and make sure you hopup unit itself is good as well.
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This is acually a really big help on this subject. Cause to be honest i didnt know what would increase the effective range of a assualt rifle. Im glade i got a chacne to see some of this stuff.
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i did vaguely specify actually at the top ^^^ "this is true in fact to a degree depending on bb weight it can decrease the range in some special cases." In SPECIAL cases it dose become an effect with the fact that the bb will hit max velocity and then slow down from there dramatically.
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That tends to happen with lighter BB's. You see that in the real world fire arms too. We'll use my favorite examples, the 7mm Remington Magnum and the old 7x57mm Mauser. The 7x57mm Mauser has been used to kill pretty much anything that walk, crawls, or flies around the world since it's introduction in the late 1800's. The 7mm Remington magnum has also been used to kill a lot of game, and there is an illusion among most hunters that it is in some way superior to the 7x57mm Mauser. The 7mm mag shoots pretty hot, but the problem with most 7mm's is the availibility of heavier bullets, so usually the bullets that are used in the magnum are the same as the standard bullets found in the 7mm Mauser. This results in the 7mm mag firing several hundred feet per second faster at the muzzle than the 7mm Mauser. The first problem for the 7mm magnum is that it requires sometimes up to 60% MORE powder than the 7mm Mauser to gain as little as a 20% velocity advantage at the muzzle. Already sound like a lost cause, huh? Well out at about 200- 300 yards, the bullet from the 7mm mag has slowed down to the nearly the same velocity as the one from the 7mm Mauser. So the 7mm mag pretty much blows all it's steam real quick then peters out quick as well. This, in the realoading community, is known as being 'overbore'. Having too much power behind a smaller bullet to where diminished results are had. Now, If you were to start shooting some significantly heavier bullets in the 7mm mag, you would really start to see more of a performance gap between the two.
To switch this over into airsoft terms for you guys, the 7mm mag would be like having a field gun that shot 400fps and shooting .20g BB's in it. You're simply not gonna get very good results out of that due to that .20g bb has a point of diminished return in performance. The 7mm Mauser would be more like a field gun shooting somewhere in the ballpark of 330-350fps with .20g bb's. In that range the .20g is much more stable and can be used much more effectively. Now if the 400fps gun goes to shooting .25g bb's it will bring it's muzzle velocity down to about 370fps, BUT it will be doing so with a projectile with 25% more weight and in effect will travel farther, be more stable and accurate, and will be much less effected by outside factors like wind and foliage.
To put into even simpler forms, shooting a .20g bb at 400fps would be like throwing a wadded up piece of paper. Yeah, it's gonna leave your hand fast, but it's gonna poop out real quick too. Throw a small rock instead. It will leave your hand slower, but it's gonna go much farther and be more useful.
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To put into even simpler forms, shooting a .20g bb at 400fps would be like throwing a wadded up piece of paper. Yeah, it's gonna leave your hand fast, but it's gonna poop out real quick too. Throw a small rock instead. It will leave your hand slower, but it's gonna go much farther and be more useful.
^ Right on mate!
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hrrmmm....
Looking back, i didn't ever say that FPS doesn't do anything for range, but I didn't specify it either...
My point was, FPS is a "focus" that most folks have, and it doesn't mean as much as one would automatically "assume". It does mean SOMETHING ( hence my point of airseal ) , but in a base form, it doesn't mean Everything.
To answer above... no, a FPS measurement has nothing to do with velocity. ( Unless we are using different definitions of velocity, of such I could be mistaken on what you meant. )
FPS = Feet Per Second.
Out of a Chrono... the thing is, it either passes through a series of lights, or through a "radar" like sound point, that determines how fast an object is moving. It's kinda the same principle of a baseball pitcher, throwing a pitch, and having it measured in Miles Per Hour ( MPH) .
FPS is a unit of measurement of speed.
Above I referred to "joules" ... because I mentioned TMs and Japan's standards for airsoft gun operations.
Joules, measures velocity and speed, and I'm not sure what else... Like I said, we don't have to worry about an external highly enforced governmental law regarding out hobby guns here, so it's kinda pointless to worry about the exact scientific formula for "joules".
TMs were made with as much FPS as Japan's laws allowed, and they had to get GOOD at getting some kind of real distance out of a light plastic BB, given their limitations. The result was... a low-end FPS ( compared to the US based FPS ranges ), with decent to most excellent performance out of those AEGs.
In it's "base" conception, it was a remarkable Idea, one that after a while of doing the "quest for better FPS" myself, reverted back to TRYING to shave FPS down , yet not reduce effective range or performance.
Thats because... i wanted MOST of my AEGS to hit the 300 - 380 FPS range for field OPs anyways.
Since I don't care much for ROF ( standard ROF is fine for me) , but definitely wanted my primaries to Chrono good at events, and have better trigger response, while not reducing my effective range so I'd be disadvantaged so much it cripples ya in play... Which is why I choose to lighten my springs, and go with a much more productive Airseal and Hop-up ( bucking) route.
I'm gaining just as much FPS out of a m100 spring, with the airseal and improved buckings, that are comparable with those that use a standard m120 spring.
I found m120 springs, with the airseal and new buckings... put the FPS rating over most field limits for primaries. Since it's DUMB to have an MP5 set at DMR ratings, I choose a "less is more" route.
Unlike Metal, I've not seen much of change in performance by polishing the barrels I have, it doesn't seem to me, to do any better than just having a "clean" barrel to begin with... but as he says, thats Apples and Oranges, he uses different set ups and barrels than I do. I do see the "merits" of it theoretically though...
In Theory, a polished BB already 'slick" ( good BBs only apply here please ) , being spun back ( for hop up ) should "offer" less Surface resistance as it "spins" , ( less surface area touching the barrel tube) , and having the barrel tube "slick" means less resistance where it does touch the tube as it flies down it.
For the most part... keep in mind what you are TRYING to achieve.
A plastic BB ... no matter what, is only going to "fly" so far , before it looses it's inertia and falls due to gravity and air resistance.
But, since I play primarily in field/outdoors, and recently in a lot of MOUT situations... I've went with the "less is more" types of options. I simply don't "need" 400+ FPS , to accomplish my desired results.
Again... it fits me, my situation, and what I want to do with my AEGs.
If I was to build another DMR, or if I wanted to lugg around a support weapon, I might take other approaches for different results.
To switch this over into airsoft terms for you guys, the 7mm mag would be like having a field gun that shot 400fps and shooting .20g BB's in it. You're simply not gonna get very good results out of that due to that .20g bb has a point of diminished return in performance. The 7mm Mauser would be more like a field gun shooting somewhere in the ballpark of 330-350fps with .20g bb's. In that range the .20g is much more stable and can be used much more effectively. Now if the 400fps gun goes to shooting .25g bb's it will bring it's muzzle velocity down to about 370fps, BUT it will be doing so with a projectile with 25% more weight and in effect will travel farther, be more stable and accurate, and will be much less effected by outside factors like wind and foliage.
Which was what I meant by the "joules" reference , and the factor of BB weight in aegs in my first post, as well.
I'm even considering, getting an AK .. BLEH! ... but trying to get it field limit FPS ( under 400 fps) , yet still thwack out .28s ...
Why? Well, i need something for my insurgenty load-out, that is well... Insurgenty. AKs have a most incredible accuracy rate , one the best I've seen in AEGs... I hate the look, feel, and style of em... but, one cannot deny the end result of em at all. ( Not even me)
Why .28s you ask?
Simple... foliage and wind , play more a factor at 200' from your gun barrel, and I desire to keep as much kinetic energy in my BBs as possible. Since OK, and Kansas, and somewhat MO and AR have some degrees of wind almost all year around ... I'm just wanting to experiment.
The AK, best option for your money, and an already superb hop up and accurate gun... a great base to start with there.
Now mind you... I'm shooting for 380-400 FPS with a .20 , which probably translates into a 300 FPS max by using a .28 ( the AEG still has to pass a chrono with a .20. ) .. I could set the FPS rating at 380 FPS with a .28, but thats like what.. almost 500 FPS ( DMR or sniper only) rating with a .20?
What I am hoping for though, is not to have a BB traveling so slow, down range, that it could be outran by a turtle. Thats my key element right there... getting accurate distance, yet not sacrificing speed of long ranged shots.
It to me, doesn't do any good to be able to hit a quarter at 250 feet, if your target simply is able to constantly slide right out of it's way before it gets there.
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when you were talking about joulse what do you mean by velocity and speed? velocity = m/s and speed can mean the same thing witch would give you m^2 / s^2 witch is acceleration.
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If I'm not mistaken, joules is a measurement of potential energy or force produced by the particular projectile you're shooting. So basically you're measuring how 'hard' it will hit instead of how fast it's going. In all honesty, I think we should use joules rather than FPS in airsoft.
@ Dragon: You're gonna be pretty disapointed with shooting .28's with a gun rated at only 380fps. Also, you're math is a little off with how much the velocity drops when using heavier BB's. My M14 GBBR shoots at ~465fps with a .20g and ~395fps with a .30g. Most guns that shoot right at the 400fps mark with .20g's only drop down to about 365-370fps by going up to a .25g. I had the same idea as you, Dragon, about shooting .28g's in my field guns, but Bushman instructed me the more often that not you'll actuall loose range due to the .28g BB not being pushed enough to reach it's true potential.
Here's a link that you ALL should look at. This is a post on the MSE forums by the grand master himself, Bushman.
http://milsimevent.com/forums/showthread.php?1128-BushMan-s-6mm-Airsoft-Ballistics-Data
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@ Dragon: You're gonna be pretty disapointed with shooting .28's with a gun rated at only 380fps. Also, you're math is a little off with how much the velocity drops when using heavier BB's. My M14 GBBR shoots at ~465fps with a .20g and ~395fps with a .30g. Most guns that shoot right at the 400fps mark with .20g's only drop down to about 365-370fps by going up to a .25g.
Which has been my worry...
but, is why we have a good base of experience, and fundamental examination in the team itself. :) between you and me, we can hammer that out. Or find a different option that will gain better if not same results as I desire or need. It COULD be, me using the stupid AK, I might not have to worry so much about heavier shot grade anyways...
Like I said, it's a hell of a base platform, that even I cannot deny.
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here's my "issue" with measuring "impact" ...
There's a huge difference in impact at point blank, to 200 feet out... the kinetic energy drops rapidly the farther the BB flies...
But, it's like.. we can get "picky" trying to re-invent the wheel here, or use our base understood units of measure anyways. FPS, is misleading a tad bit... but Joules, is over-complicating the process entirely.
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when you were talking about joulse what do you mean by velocity and speed? velocity = m/s and speed can mean the same thing witch would give you m^2 / s^2 witch is acceleration.
Umm.. somewhat...
acceleration is caused by air-pressure behind the BB. The "faster" the air pressure "pushes" the BB, the more you got transferring to the BB as it flies away...
Regardless of your spring size... a m100 or a m5000 ( hehehe ) ... your cylinder will only hold so much air to begin with. ( Volume of "energy" )
It's not like the Spring itself... hits the BB with a hammer blow, or impact... it pushes a piston, that compresses air. ( "Energy" transfer )
the barrel ... focuses the BB flight path, and the air flowing behind it. ( Accelerated/concentrated force of previous "energy" )
( the air nozzle I think as well... it's hard to say if thats a part of the "barrel system" , or Piston system lol. )
but... like i said, I'm not a physics major... nor am I a math wizard.
The actual science is lost on me... but I d know results of trying different things , compared to what you can buy stock. I understand the main functions of the parts of an AEG, and am grasping how little things, can make huge impacts on performance.
When I get crap wrong, lol... I got Cody and Metal to laugh at me, and put me back into the "really real world" focus. :)
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According to Bushman's little chart, there isn't an effective FPS rate for .28s in field grade primaries ( 400 FPS or lower) ... ???
It's ONLY .03 ( 3 hundredths ) of a gram over a .25... , he's probably right, but seems odd you'd HAVE to do DMR velocity or greater.
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Well, as you said, an AK might be an exception to the rule. I know when I first got my G&G GR16 and it was shooting 420fps right out of the box, I almost had to shoot .28g's in it to get any kind of flat accurate shots out of it. As soon as I lowered the velocity to under the field maximum, .28g's were no longer an option. It was suprising to see that little bit of velocity make that much difference, but it did. Then again, that gun is an M series and not an AK and therefore it's hopup is less effective. I've had OK luck with .28g's in my CYMA AK74 which shoots right around the 400fps mark. I honestly think I get a tad bit more range with .25g's while sacrificing very little accuracy.
I'd barrow some .28g's from some one on the team and try them out before jumping head first into it.
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when you were talking about joulse what do you mean by velocity and speed? velocity = m/s and speed can mean the same thing witch would give you m^2 / s^2 witch is acceleration.
Umm.. somewhat...
acceleration is caused by air-pressure behind the BB. The "faster" the air pressure "pushes" the BB, the more you got transferring to the BB as it flies away...
that is velocity not acceleration, which is the rate that something changes speed. So if we have a .20g bb and its going 300fps or 91.44m/s (google calculator) and it travels lets just say it travels 75m and we will take out the factor of air so the bb goes 75m in 1.2192s. so now we can get acceleration which can be calculated by (final velocity - initial velocity) / time = (0 - 91.44) / 1.2 = -76.2 so a=-76.2 now we can get force which is F = mass x acceleration so .2 * -76.2 = -15.24N so N(or F)= -15.24 so now we can get Joules which is equal to J = F x d or -15.24 * 75 = -1143J(or work) so that is the difference between acceleration, velocity, Force, and work or joules i understand that air flow is a large factor here but this is an extreem example (and yes the answers are negative because the bb is slowing down = (-))
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J man, ... lol, you lost me.
Still though...
It really doesn't matter, lol, I don't have to understand it...
The point of all this was stating that FPS wasn't EVERYTHING ...
Metal and I pointed out, it's a matter of some importance, but is highly dependent on what you want to do with it. ( the results you want in the end)
It doesn't mean, anything is "absolutely" better the higher your FPS goes...
in fact, there are many instances, and I can prove it with my MP5, where lower FPS gave more accuracy and distance ( and a longer accurate distance) , than what it had being stock in the 400+ FPS range.
But still... FPS isn't everything, or .. I suppose it's possible for it to be everything ( or the only quality of a certain brand , lol ) ... but most the time, it isn't.
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I'm with you fellers on this one. Less is more. Many guys in my local club were slaves to velocity. They sank a small fortune into their guns trying to supe them up to 500fps or more, thinking they would shoot to the moon. Fact was, the more they did to them, the more problems they had. When they did work, a couple of them did see a wicked increase in distance while using .30's, but none of thier guns ran more than half a game before breaking. For me an m90 spring with .20g ammo is ideal for short range, and an m120 with 25.g's in the field. A little extra barrel helps too.
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With a great airseal, an M110 should be all you'll need for field use. The point of air seal besides being more consistant is to allow you to get more velocity with a given BB while still using a weaker spring. This allows your battery to last longer, motor works less adding trigger response and ROF, and most other general internal parts last longer. Most properly airsealed guns I've seen can easily achive ~365fps with a .20g BB and only using an M100 spring. An M110 might even put you over the 400fps mark.
Ever hear of 'bore-up kits'? Essentially they're a slightly larger cylinder, cylinder head, air nozzle, and piston head set that seal the normally leaky points for the air and allowing you to compress more air in a given cylinder length. Bore up kits are another great way to increase FPS with using stock or weaker springs.
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yup,
cause airseal.. or the more "force" you are transferring to the BB is what counts.
It increases FPS just by default... but, it's not the speed of the BB that carries it, it's the stored and transferred energy caused by more "force".
The speed comes, just by default in that instance.
(maybe thats what Jman was talking about "velocity" ... I dunno. )
The difference is...
If you didn't airseal, or bore up... and just put a heavier grade spring in... the spring itself is just slamming harder inside the gear box, it pushes the piston faster... with less chance of air escaping, but it still usually "leaks" anyways.
But it really just speeds up the BB , with-out transferring maximum energy into the BB itself... meaning, it doesn't have as much force as it COULD have behind it.
It may get a slight increase in distance based off speed, but looses it's own momentum rapidly as well.
As Porkchop pointed out...
51/50 guys, were like high FPS players... I know one of em had a AEG just right around the 550 FPS range, which he put a good amount of money in.
Not only did he not get the range he wanted, his shots were not in a tight spread at any real distance... you could say that was all the Hop-up's fault... I doubt that though, I think it was more inaccurate transfer of energy.
My m4, which was shooting 380 ( with a crappy hop up ) , was shooting just as far, and more accurate... and that was before I had figured out to get a good airseal. My shot pattern was closer together as well.
I do believe , it was a more consistent energy transfer is why I had better grouping and accuracy, after 150 feet.
He was also having to shoot a heavy weight BB, and I was getting the same or better results with a .25.
Also, all that money, work, and "upgrading" did him little good... before half the day was over, the gun went down... done stripped his gears and broke his piston teeth.
I do have a m100 in my MP5 SD6, and I need to chrono it on a good chrono... but I know I'm pushing at least 380 FPS with it, on a m100. If I went M110 or M120... it'd be firing way to hot for most field limits easily...
But I have better trigger response, it does have a slight increase of ROF by default, I'd say I gained a 1/2 a BB increase every other shot... not much, but it does shoot faster... and it's less wear an tear on the internals... which means my batteries last longer, and the AEG itself will last many years.
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You guys make extremely painfully long posts. This topic only has two pages but seems like it should have twenty!
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Long posts, maybe. Informative posts, always.
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There's too much to be explained in just one sentence.....
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I have a philosophy...
If you don't have enough to say, don't say anything. :)
Everything needs clarification. I don't care much for post that don't give alot of details or examples.
I've always wondered why , especially young people , have an aversion to reading???
Would the Deceleration of Independence have been so IMPORTANT to people, so INSPIRING, or so PROFOUND... if it merely said:
" We Hate English Rule, We are Now Free!"
No of course not, it needed more to it, more explanation, and direction for people not only of that time, but for any future generations that lived in the free USA long after the reasons WHY it was written.
Flat out, if you want a one or two sentence reply , you usually will not get that out of me. I like to cover alot of ground, when I'm on a topic... and even as long as my post are, I usually don't get everything I need to say out in one sitting.
(I mean... Why ask, of something... if you didn't want a REAL response to begin with? )
To me, if someone wishes to skip over what I type up, thats fine by me. Just because I offer something, doesn't mean it has to be accepted or agreed with.
But I do worry about the "patience" factor... a bit. If one isn't willing to have patience to read informative post, do they have the patience to stay an active part of airsoft, or show dedication to the hobby in a long term sense?
Now, what was the topic again? ;D
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what did joe just say?
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Long posts, maybe. Informative posts, always.
Well, I can't disagree with that.
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nor can i.but dragon made a good point with accurate distances. Fps isnt every thing for exampel if u put a m150 in a CA u will get like maby 15 to 20 more fps in stead of tearing up ure gear box, just leave the regular ole stock spring that comes with it and get a new hop up new tight bore barrel that helps with fps, range, and accuracy and then u are less likely to strip gears and u will get a better rof than what u would have with an m 150 not to even consider cost.Lets see u would pay 50 to 100 bux for a new motor 20 bux for a new spring and if u did it right then u would buy new gears thats any ware from 70 to 120 bux since it CA u half to get metal bushings and thats any ware from 10 to 30 bux a new piston with metal teeth on it that is any ware from 20 to 65 bux and a new battery9.6 votl for long batter life 50 to 100 bux so total of all that is roughly 305 bux depending on what u buy for 20 more fps u could just as easly spend 50 bux on a tight bore and new hop up and get way better fps than 20 higher depending on what u buy take the cheaper easer route if u are gona do sompthin like that
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nor can i.but dragon made a good point with accurate distances. Fps isnt every thing for exampel if u put a m150 in a CA u will get like maby 15 to 20 more fps in stead of tearing up ure gear box, just leave the regular ole stock spring that comes with it and get a new hop up new tight bore barrel that helps with fps, range, and accuracy and then u are less likely to strip gears and u will get a better rof than what u would have with an m 150 not to even consider cost.Lets see u would pay 50 to 100 bux for a new motor 20 bux for a new spring and if u did it right then u would buy new gears thats any ware from 70 to 120 bux since it CA u half to get metal bushings and thats any ware from 10 to 30 bux a new piston with metal teeth on it that is any ware from 20 to 65 bux and a new battery9.6 votl for long batter life 50 to 100 bux so total of all that is roughly 305 bux depending on what u buy for 20 more fps u could just as easly spend 50 bux on a tight bore and new hop up and get way better fps than 20 higher depending on what u buy take the cheaper easer route if u are gona do sompthin like that
An M150 isn't only going to gain you 15-20fps. From the average FPS that CA has out of the box, they usually are setting right about 330fps. An M150 should be getting you at LEAST 500fps. So after the math, that's a 130fps jump.
A good motor can be had for ~$45-$85, spring $15-$20, gears $50, metal bushings $15, piston $20, battery $25. Using all the highest prices listed that only comes out to $215. Also, most tightbores only gain about a maximum of 10fps and the hopup will gain you NO fps unless it increases the seal between the barrel and the hopup unit which makes it part of your overall airseal.
Lastly, please try and use proper spelling and grammar on the forums man. It doesn't have to be perfect or always correct spelling, but 'bux' and 'u' are not words.
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sorry about the spelling but i put an m 150 in 1 of my classic armys and it was shooting 345 fps with a 20 gram bb i dont know if u have tries it but i can eshure you that u wont get 500 maby with a 12 gram bb but not a 20
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sorry about the spelling but i put an m 150 in 1 of my classic armys and it was shooting 345 fps with a 20 gram bb i dont know if u have tries it but i can eshure you that u wont get 500 maby with a 12 gram bb but not a 20
If you put in a m150, and only got 345 FPS, there is something seriously wrong in there somewhere.
a m120 puts you at 375 FPS stock ( depending on brand) ... quite often, 380 in JG and Echo1 brands, about 360 in a few others, before you airseal and get better nubbing.
I don't think a CA motor has enough muscle to pull a m150 , I could be wrong... but any CA motors I've had or came across were weak motors, more suited for lighter set ups.
Still, a m150 is a BEAST...
My best guess though, if the CA was actually making a full cycle with a m150... then you had MAJOR airbleed out of the piston. Nozzle was bad/mis-shapened , the O ring on the piston head not doing it's job... ( Cracked poly carb piston head?) SOMETHING along those lines.
I used a m130 in the DMR , and I was shooting 495 FPS with it. An M140 woulda put it over 500 FPS for sure, so Metal does know what he's talking about there. We do this stuff all the time.
I've heard others say, they dropped in a higher resistance spring, and had no or very little FPS gain... , but that means something else isn't right somewhere. It has always been an issue , that only stood out when the springs were switched.
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Lastly, please try and use proper spelling and grammar on the forums man. It doesn't have to be perfect or always correct spelling, but 'bux' and 'u' are not words.
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Be easy now... i did notice this is a touchy subject. I do not have the greatiest spelling in the world but the point got thru bad spelling or not.
On this subject though Metal, and Dragon both have a huge point on this... were not trying to shut you down Moon but m150 is a huge jump in FPS. I really think there must have been something wrong with your setup or it was installed incorrectly, but back to the point. If you think about it though even though you increase the FPS it just seems like it still goes the same distence but it just gets to that distance faster. Call me stupid(dont really call me stupid) but i do think that an m150 is a little overkill anyways considering my m120 in my jg gearbox got me 398-410fps last time it was crono'd. Anyways thats my $.03
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well i feel stupid now because im obvsoually not making my point. I did get a new motor the matrix magnum but like some one said "depending on brand" ca does not have verry good hop up buckings in comparison to ather brand and they dont have tight boar barrels or verry good nozels oh maby i didnt mention that it was a sport line ca m15 a4 i hope that explains things thanks.
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The bucking and barrel still don't play that much in your FPS man. It's the main airseal that consists of the parts in the gearbox like the cylinder, cylinder hea, piston head, and air nozzle. I once put an M120 in an Echo1 SCAR and got 400fps. I also threw an M125 into a KWA SR12 and got 445fps. So there had to be a MAJOR flaw in your air seal. If I had to guess, and this is a huge shot in the dark, I think the o-ring on your piston head or something to do with your piston head not sealign very well at all inside the cylinder. Either that, or some of the teath on your piston were ground off or broken off to where the piston wasn't getting pulled back all the way to get the full compression of the spring. Some M150's have been known to get velocities around 550fps or even more. Springs as low as M110 will get you 350-360 and M120's usually get you up to the high 300's and sometimes over 400 as in Reverand's case.
The comment that the added fps doesn't seem to get you more range and just makes the BB get there faster means your bb's hit it's terminal velocity at a much lower velocity and you should now be shooting a heavier BB. The heavier BB will retain more of the initial velocity over greater distance than lighter BB's.
Reverand is right about the M150 being overkill. AEG's have a shorter life span when put under that much stress. Also, almost every field restricts the use of AEG's over 400fps unless it's a DMR, but even then the cut off for snipers is usually 550fps. I think trying to achive that kind of velocity by only swaping a spring and maybe the motor too is cheap to begin with but will quickly become more than you bargained for. Again I will get up on mine and Dragon's soap box and preach AIR SEAL. My G&G M4 is shooting a little under 400fps with only an M100 spring, but has an amazing airseal, so none of that air that is being compressed is be lost or wasted.
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i dont no wat u talk bout
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My suggestion would be to take it apart and see what's going on...
I'm with Metal, I think your piston head or O-ring isn't doing it' s job.
I'm pretty sure that m150 has probably not let your piston cycle all the way back, and if it's polycarb or cheaply made, you might have some ate out teeth or broken ones...
This is what i'd do... I'd get a m110 or m120 spring...
Go to lowes, get a #14 Oring set, and replace that Oring on the piston head.
Get rid of that M150... it's not going to give you any more , high FPS maybe, but it's not going to let ya shoot any light BB worth a crap, and as I said before it's over-kill. That spring will eat up your motor fast, and tear up your internals.
To get top performance out of a m150, you are going to HAVE to replace every part almost in that gear-box, and possibly the shell of the gear box as well... I promise you, it will not hold up long if you don't, and at that point, you might as well, just buy a new upgraded AEG for what you are going to spend replacing needed parts, with high end stuff.
The CA sportlines, were never meant to have such a high velocity spring system in em. There's a reason they come with High Speed Motors in em... even the gear ratio is for higher speed set ups. ( it's cheaper grade gears. )
They simply weren't made to be high FPS or high velocity shooters in application.
Most generally all "sportlines" are intended to be a reasonable and cheaper alternative to the more "expensive" varieties.
Now, that's not to say... they can't be upgraded, but not from stock to "extreme" upgrades.
Also, it isn't a "bad gun" to start with... stock performance should have gotten ya by easily. If not, I think it's be a manufacturing flaw, or you bought it used from someone that really didn't take care of it, or know how to maintain it.
So, replacing the motor, with a high torque motor... but it still has light to high speed gears, should be alright for a m100 or a m110 , MAYBE a m120... maybe.
Lets say you go a m110 ...
That, if your airseal is good... is going to place you in the 330-360 FPS range with a .25 and hop up engaged. 350 FPs is optimum generally for field grade AEG combat... your .25s will go as far distance wise, as if you had a 400 FPS set up. Honestly, the "gain" from a higher FPS spring, is somewhat negligible... that 5-10 feet isn't really going to make much difference when you are actually in a simulated combat situation.
( It will be about 375-380 FPS, with Hop up off, with a .20 BB, not sure with a.25 with hop up off.)
Anything from 340 FPS through 400 FPS is generally what you'd want out of a field grade primary anyways. There's no need for anything higher, unless you are going for something very specialized... like a DMR.
I am assuming, you just want your primary operational, and to perform well on the field, and not going DMR or Sniper rifle with it. ( it's the "wrong" model for one of those though.)
You max range on BB flight, if not doing the "robin hood arrow drop" , (that is aiming in a high arc...) will be about 275 feet distance. ( about 92 yards, or 91 meters ) ... your accurate distance ( the range you can most likely hit a 2x2 target 75% of the time ) will be around 60% of it's total flight distance, which would roughly be at 55 yards, or 150 feet away.
That means... INSIDE 150 ( roughly) feet, you are more likely going to hit what you aim at ... given if there is no wind, or the BB has no variations. Outside 150, up to your max distance... every 10 feet drops that probability of a sure hit by about 10-15 percent. That is per single fired BB. ( which is why folks love FA outside... they can "walk" missed shots in, or send more, increasing a chance of a hit.)
MOST of your engagements in simulated combat are around 150-200 feet away outside anyways, or closer than that.
300 feet( 100 yards) or more... is usually too great of a distance, due to obstructions, wind/air distance, and concealment to accurately engage any OPFOR. The BBs will not travel that far generally anyways. Not with a roughly 1% chance of accuracy or less.
The fact is, you can see alot farther, than any "normal" velocity AEG can shoot. You can ( and people often do) shoot or try to at those distances... but sure hits are very rare, most of it is luck or perfect conditions if they do.
However, if you REALLY pay attention, good action "battles" and firefights, happen at much closer distances.
Even Sniping Rifles of high FPS ratings, with heavier BBs, and DMRs still have trouble accurately hitting a target at 300 feet away. The range, because it's a plastic round BB... just isn't there.
(It isn't real steel, the logistics are WAY different. )
The only "advantage" of a DMR or Sniping Rifle is they increase ACCURACY ( or are supposto) INSIDE the flight path. They don't really get much more in total range... they can just increase the percentage of ACCURATE distance inside a set max range to begin with.
Yes, they may get another 40 feet of MAX distance... maybe, or maybe more or a bit less... just depends. But the farther a BB travels, the less likely it is to accurately hit a target or OPfor.
So, back to the thing here...
Now that we've established, the BB will only go so far... how do you get max ACCURATE shot distance out of it?
First off... disregard FPS a bit... it IS NOT as Important as one is misled to "believe".
Instead, focus on AIRSEAL ... ( which does increase FPS by default if you are still worried about it.) So a m110 with a base rating of 340 FPS with a .20 BB, in an AEG with a great Airseal, is going to get about 380 FPS out of it.
Engaging hop up... is going to bring that FPS down a bit ( it's friction and slows down your BB a bit) , but it puts "spin" on the BB, to IMPROVE it's flight capability.
Tighten the barrel bore, only slightly... I've found 6.01s not to be as good as a 6.03 ... I think , due to variations in BBs... the tighter bores, often provide too much "friction" even if it does focus the airflow more. ( Kinda defeats it's own purpose in a way.)
The Combo of those 3 things... will offer you a greater accuracy distance, at a decent and MANAGEABLE FPS rating.
My example...
My Stock JG G36,( m120 spring) at a 380 FPS has a shorter accurate distance, and shorter range , than my MP5 that has about 350 FPS. ( m100 spring)
The differences , besides the different spring... is the JG is still stock. I hadn't air sealed it, I hadn't put a nice bucking in it, It has a 6.08 barrel in it. It shoot fine and all that as is...
But the MP5, I redone to increase distance and accuracy ... I dropped in a Tighter barrel, new nice bucking, and got my airseal as good as I can get without silicone the piston head.
I shoot .25s outdoors in both, and my MP5 with less FPS, performs a bit better hands down.
The "speed" of the BBs in flight, negligible , or you can't notice it by the naked eye... though obviously the MP5 shots travel slightly a bit slower than the G36 BBs do. ( only can tell by the chrono though, lol.)
So, in my opinion... you just tried to put "too much" behind the BB, relying on the spring to do the work for ya... which is a common mistake made. ( Just ask PorkChop , and the 51/50 guys, lol )
That and the internals, were never designed to take that kind of power or punishment, not out of a sportline, and I would say not out of most non-sportline models as well.
m150 springs, were made for 2 reasons:
1- for high end sniping rifles...
and
2- To sell to un-knowing FPS chasers. :)
a m150.. is just flat out, too much spring... and not enough BB by default.
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Alright guys I'm gonna go out on a limb here so see what you guys think. M250 spring using 0.80 gram bbs, huh, huh? Pretty sick right! No literally it's sick because that would probably kill someone JUST saying...
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yea i got rid of the m150 a long time ago i was just putting it out there and i put the spring that was in the gear box back in it, still it only shooting 330 with a 20 gram bb nothing wrong there. thank for the advise i know who to ask when i have a gear box question.
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There had to be something going on when that 150 was in there. There is just no way that everything was working the way it should've been and that gun shot anywhere under 400fps. Maybe the m150 was causing so much compression that it was making the stock airseal parts that normally had no problems sealing in the power of an M100 to leak.
@Shootemup: That might be fun to brag about and target practice with, but you'd never get to use it at an official field. Bushman from the Arkansas Outlaws built a custom spring sniper that shot close to 1000fps with a .43g BB. He claimed to be able to hit targets at around 180yds (checked with a laser range finder). Bushman is set to steal the world record longest airsoft sniper shot again at this year's OKI7. If he does, he will be bringing the record to the US and stealing it from the Europeans! ;D