Springfield Airsoft
General Category => General Airsoft => Topic started by: Run and Gun on January 24, 2012, 06:52:34 AM
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Recently I've been trying to scrounge up enough money to upgrade the spring on my s-system m4a1. I'm not sure if I should or not because I heard upgrading a spring is bad for a gun. It would be much appreciated if somebody posted some pros and cons for me.
Run and Gun
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i downgraded from a 120 spring to a 90 spring and i love it
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The only time I see cons to upgrading your spring is when the spring is up over the M120 line and almos requires lots of other upgrade parts just to withstand the beating of a stronger spring. Also you're motor won't handle a stronger spring as well and your trigger response, ROF, and battery life will go down noticeably.
Now if you're wanting to set your gun up for playing inside SoGo, just get an M90 or clip the spring you have and you should be good.
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Most of the S-system M4's I've seen come stock with a 110 or 120 spring. This puts them at the 380-400 fps range already, and most places don't allow much, if any, higher velocity than that anyhow. Even if you lower it to cqb speed, you won't loose any range if you use good ammo and have a good hop-up bucking.
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Thanks everybody! Perhaps your advice about upgrading will help me make the right decision.
Run and Gun
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When you decide that you want to upgrade/degrade your gun spring there are some precautions you need to take. Say you want to upgrade your spring, first you need to know whether your motor can pull the new spring. If you know that your motor has the strength to easily do the task of pulling the stronger spring than upgrading is a go, if the motor is too weak you will need to upgrade the motor along with the spring then all should be good for a new spring.
Upon degrading your spring for CQB you should check your gear-set. Make sure that your gear-set is good enough to handle the increased rate of fire. Sometimes the gun doesn't experience an increased rate of fire, if so, then the following steps won't be nessacary. Although, if you know that your gun has an increased rate of fire and your gear-set is too weak than a new gear-set is nessacary. There is another option that you can take in response of increased rate of fire, this would be down-grading your battery (example: 9.6v battery down to an 8.4v battery).
I hope this helped and feel free to contact me about any further questions because I have alot of experience with this.
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When you decide that you want to upgrade/degrade your gun spring there are some precautions you need to take. Say you want to upgrade your spring, first you need to know whether your motor can pull the new spring. If you know that your motor has the strength to easily do the task of pulling the stronger spring than upgrading is a go, if the motor is too weak you will need to upgrade the motor along with the spring then all should be good for a new spring.
This is only true to a point. If your motor is too weak to say go from an M100 to an M120, then you have two options. One being staying with your factory motor and changing to a high torque gear set. The other is as ShootEmUp mentioned and staying with the factory gearset and getting a stronger motor.
With ROF the thing that REALLY comes under the most stress is the piston. Seeing as almost NO gun comes from the factory with correct AOE or 'angle of engagement' there tends to be more wear and tear put onto the teeth of the piston and sometimes the whole back of the piston will get torn off. Most stock gearsets are of 18:1 ratio which can get you decent ROF but there is a certain point where the ratio of those gears simply won't allow any successfuly higher ROF. What I mean by that is sometimes you CAN increase your ROF beyond a certain point by using say an 11.1v lipo but usually at the cost of encountering pre-engagement and chewing up your piston. Pre-engagement is when the gears are spinning so fast that the sector gear is making a whole revolution and starts to pull the piston back before the piston can make it's total cycle. Thus teeth on the piston get chewed up and you don't get as much air compressed with each proceding shot making your BB's usually just plain fall out of the barrel. I've never seen the gears not be able to handle a weaker spring but I have seen them not be able to handle the tougher ones.
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If it was me, going from stock ....
I'd drop the spring power down, to m100 or m110. ( m90 if going strictly Sogos)
Airseal that piston. If you don't have a 6.04 or better tightbore ( I like running 6.03s or G&G barrels if stock) , get one.
set the AOE so that your gears line up, and reshim them to set perfectly.
make sure you get a good air nozzle that will not leak, I've not found many that aren't very good, but I've had great luck with aimtop nozzles believe it or not.
anything else, will be any slight issues, if you have them with your hop up. Replace what ya need to, only if you need to.
Run a 9.6 NiHm batter, or a 7.4 Lipo. The lipo will do little for increasing ROF, but it does increase trigger response slightly.
stock ROF, is actually decent in my opinion.
get it back together, and you'll have a nice firing, field capable aeg, that will last you quite awhile, with-out having to get a load of expensive parts.
A stronger motor, and new gears might increase ROF, but everything that gives you range and accuracy is the airseal, barrel bore ( somewhat) and hop up.
Thats my opinion, of course... I'm one that will run stock until something wears out, or isn't working well most the time.
I'm a cheap minded individual, and I try to get by with bare min spending.
This has worked well for me, and better than alot of "expensive" fixes we had done, that didn't last long.
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Man, just when I think I covered everything...good thing I have guys like "Metal" and "Dragon" to back me up.
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Show-off's.........(lol)
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well its not that there show offs... its more along the lines of ... knowledge offs... they have knowledge and they want to get it off. Im the same way i just havent been on in a bit. I do apologize for not chiming on this subject aswell.
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Show-off's.........(lol)
Perfectionist! .. Hehehee
He was kidding Rev... he's also a decent tech.
There are alot of things, I still can't do with AEGs... and even more, I don't do, that others tell me to do.
I'm just a cheap-skate... , plain and simple.
A Typical convo, discussed between Recon and I :
" Dragon, you need a new lower. This one is broke on the pin."
" New? ... I'm sure we have something laying around".
" maybe. But lets look... oh, here's one for 120! Thats nice!"
" yep, lets not spend that much. hey look, here's like 3 you have under the table."
" You don't want those, they are plastic, wouldn't match the metal upper."
" So, lets find the plastic upper."
" what are you... in kindegarden?, you don't want a plastic receiver."
" I do if it saves me 120, and fixes the issue."
" well, I'll buy it anyways, and if you don't use it.. I got something in mind for it".
" Be my guest".
" hand me that delta ring tool. lets see what else we need to do... , hey look, we can get this, and this, and this.. only 250! "
"Does it make it shoot better? "
" No, but it'll look sweet!"
" I don't care what it looks like... all I care about is if it functions, and shoots well."
" Ok, then lets look at a new gear box and gears "...
" Why? this one works, and I already modded it."
" because these are better."
" Define "better". These work. We'll save buying new , when it breaks or stripps out or something. "
" You are too cheap minded."
" yeah, but I'll retire when when I'm 45... I have a reason, I don't like dropping a wad on stuff."
....... and so on, and so on.... lol.
Most of this stuff, isn't rocket science. If you can get past it being tedious, and sometimes frustrating...
doing upgrades/down-grades, repairs, and mods isn't that hard.
Things I have the most trouble with... is like the trigger assemblies, or selector switches. If it's prone to malfunction ( say like most JG selector switches) I will have problems. Like I still hadn't resolved why my MP5, will no longer shoot on semi, but it'll shoot full auto all day long.
I even broke down, and bought all replacement parts for it, and it still has the same issue when put back all together. The GB outside the receiver, it'll fire on semi then.
I checked many times, that there's nothing hanging up or binding when fully installed... yet, it still will not fire in semi. I honestly, can't figure it out... one of those "frustrating" things.
But, to me.. the answer ( obviously) isn't a need for new parts, or spending for them...
it's probably just something, I'm over-looking or hadn't had any experience with yet.
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O dragon... you make me so happy lol. Not to get off subject but yea. There are alot of things myself i have done and am going to do... but am afriad to. But i will say one thing though on this subject. Upgrading for real in my deffense is basicly like taking your gun to the next lvl. I mean there are people say upgrading means buying a new gun... thats not always the case, but at the same time(myself in my current problem) it might more effective to just get a new gun then throwing in part after part.
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well, for me...
Things change from year to year, so ... nominally, the "next level" usually gets a bit outdated, or pushed aside for what just came out new.
It's not to say, I will not buy new... I just have an aversion to going over-board on unnecessary spending.
To me, somethings people consider "upgrades" are a bit silly.
Anything aesthetic ... is usually a big drop of money, for little gain performance wise. I mean, how well does a trademark... give you any more accuracy or range? Metal, or not... does the AEG operate at a level, that is acceptable for the type of participation you do?
Things like high ROF, is lost on me. First and foremost... all this high-speed gear ratio, and increasing ROF ... means you are slinging more BBS yes, but to me in field/mout situations, it really negates the need or use of support weapons, and those that play that role. Not that High ROFs shoot any better basically, they just sling more ammo.
Maybe it's for intimidation... I dunno.
I'm fine with 18-22 RPS standard. I don't personally NEED any more than that, and If I did.. I'd but a Stoner or other support weapon.
I'd like to say... "If it aint broke, don't "fix" it"... but thats not entirely true. My version of "upgrading", is getting the best reliable performance, as cheap as possible. I value range and accuracy, over anything else. I'm one, I'd rather have one well placed shot... than sling 20 and hope I hit the target.
Some models, and brands... are going to take more than others, to get that result.
I've come to realize, " less CAN equal more" , if you pay attention, and take your time to get everything fine tuned.
It doesn't ALWAYS means, less will equal more though.
I think, it' s pretty cool... I can do my thing, airseal and switch to a lower powered spring ( usually dropping from a 120, to a m100 or m110) , with not loosing any FPS power, and still get farther range, and increase accuracy. But, thats because I also... change a few other things, related to if I can. By default, I probably gain a round or two per second, but it really doesn't matter in short term firing, or burst firing that I do anyways. It's still manageable, so I don't waste a Mid cap of BBs, too fast.
I cannot say, I can do that with every AEG on the market... just in general theory, it should work with most.
I can take a G&G sportline... and make it perform as well, or if not better than a VFC, or other higher end "professional grade" AEG. Any "differences" are negligible or aesthetic at that point. Higher end AEGs, just means I kinda have to do or worry about LESS to do , to top out it' s performance.
The differences in range and accuracy... are un-knoticable, when you are actually in the heart of a combat situation anyways. What is a few feet of variation, anyways? Not often, will it be that extra foot or two of range, makes a huge difference.
Sometimes, I get a bit worried to do certain things as well... like I'm way more proficient with a V2 gear box, than I am with a V3. I'm better with g36 and M4 than I am with an AK gear boxes. ( Though, most of that stems from, you do not often have to wok on, or do much to an AK gear box. Comparatively, they just operate and work a great deal better than M4 gear boxes, by default.)
Most of it though, is just having the guts, to take a risk in the first place.
It is ALWAYS a risk, that opening up your AEGs, will break something, loose something, or not operate When put back together. sometimes, your 'fix" or "upgrade" can simply make things worse.
well laid plans, could be ripped aside, when you strip a pinion gear, or chew up the internals by giving your high torque motor , a test run ...
You have to be willing to expect... you MIGHT have to buy new parts, or even a new AEG in some cases in the first place, no matter how well your intentions.
It's all a learning experience, when you are a DIY type person.
I've probably broke, or messed up more , just trying stuff out... which is why, I've gained what know how I do have.
and Like I said, I have a few good mentors and teachers as well.
if I screw it up, Metal or Cody can usually fix it. or tell me how to.
Unless it's a matrix aim-top... Cody and I never figured out that one. Metal seemed to think it was an easy fixer... lol, I wound up giving up on it after a month though.
( I am not lying... the thing shot BBs in a "loopty-loop" ! When it did shoot that is. Hind sight... shoulda left it stock, sold it, and bought a G&G at least. )
Upgrades though.. mostly it' s just a simple matter of figuring out what "your next level" is, and what you desire out of such "upgrades".
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HA! I know EXACTLY who you were reffering to in that little fake conversation, Dragon. And yes, he is EXACTLY like that.
Dragon is right in saying basically that the most noticeable performance enhancers are actually 'mods' that you can easily do yourself. Heck, you just plain HAVE to do AOE as a mod. No piston/piston head set fits correctly enough to not have to adjust that. Anymore, the only things I actually buy to throw into a gun are upgraded gears, motor, and maybe a piston if the stock one is pure junk. Once in a blue moon I'll purchase a spring, but that's only if my goal is to get the gun to DMR or Suppor Gun limits or to be right at the field limit of 400fps.
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BTW.. Rev...
What issues are ya facing in your project?
( Might wanna start a new post on it though, so I don't farther derail the original topic. Joe is gonna skin me alive, lol.)
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Just wanted to also mention that while some stock guns may not need any changes for sake of performance, there's also the issue of reliability. I've seen several chinese guns that will outperform a high end one in both range and accuracy, but won't come close to the life span of one from Taiwan or Japan. Material quality is crucial when it comes to the gears and piston. Just because the box says "metal gears" doesn't mean they're case hardened steel like you'd find in a marui, CA,KWA, G&G or other high end brand. Some are a zinc alloy that is softer and wears more quickly. Some pistons and tappet plates are a lower quality plastic that is more brittle and therefore more prone to failure. I know this isn't news to you veteran player/techs, but new guys can get discouraged when their gun takes a crap in the middle of a firefight. The good news is when you do have to replace a part, there are after market brands that will last much, much longer.