markers

[Metal]

Allot of us started out with paintball. You'd have to be crazy to think that paintball wasn't fun, but then turn around and say only airsoft is. The main reason I steered to airsoft is the cost to play and maintain my equipement.

We should embrace our paintball bretheren. You never know, we may be able to sneak a few over to the 'dark side'.

[Dragon]

I came from a paintball background as well.

 Back in the day ( and this says how old I am) , before electronic triggers, and "speed ball" were rampant.

 I got one of the FIRST Micromags to hit the market, gaining it as a "test prototype" the very day Automags hit the shelves with tier first line.  The Team I was on at the time, primarily did what we called "woodsball" then, though it was more akin to what we do in MilSim , just minus the heavy load-outs ( being more "paintball looking".
 There were no "jerseys" no "paintball pants" ... you had a marker, you had paintballs ,and if "lucky", some tubes and a way to carry them... lol.
 It wasn't a "paint slinging fest", like in more modern types of play then either.  We literally tried to use 100 shots or less ( common hopper capacity at the time) during a full day of play.
 What got me was, the paintballs given the range of them, were never "accurate" enough to support the type of play we do with "airsoft" or Milsim today.
When Paintball QUICKLY gravitated to "speedball", and was more about how much ammo you could toss down range, the fastest... I opted out.
I simply spent too much a week, invested in a small field of our own, supporting a full 15 man "team" ( only two of us had jobs, and we footed the bill.), and personal use of paint and "upgrades" nearly bankrupted me, all in the name of paintball.

 I've spent around 3k in the last 2 years on airsoft... and that isn't even a sliver of what I spent on paintball my 5 years in it.

 I agree with Metal.  Even though, I enjoy Airsoft way more than I did paintball, I don't sweat the paintball players.  Ya know, most of em hard core into it... just don't know the merits of what airsoft and milsim are about. 
 There are defined "differences" most paintballers find hard to "accept". 
That doesn't mean though, they aren't skilled in what they do, or can't be given opportunities to join us in Airsoft-o-topia .

 On "marking BBs"... I don't see a way to "improve" that the way they are doing it currently. 
The small 6mm Paintballs seems a better option than dust covered BBs, but then they pose their own issues as well.

 Unless "airsoft" gravitates towards something more akin to "Simunition" , I don't see "marking" BBs being very good or reliable... especially with the outdated and archaic way airsoft guns are put together and designed currently.

 Honestly, I like the "honor system" the most. 
It does work, true it DOES have a measure of room for Error... but it does work, if applied.

But even WITH marking "ammo", such as in Paintball... just ask any of them guys. You get just as many "cheaters" , ignoring hits , or not following the rules... even when you can VISIBLY see the impacts on em.

 The "measure of error" in any case... is Human Nature.  Something we can't easily dissolve or "fix".

[Supercell]

That is exactly what I think.  Back before we got into airsoft (1997) my brother and I did the Paintball thing.  And had fun doing it.  We just found we had a better time once we found Airsoft.  And I do give those who still like doing the Paintball thing.  And alot of people do both. (right Joe?)  And I have found that the majority of Airsofters today started in the Paintball scene.  So let them do what they like to do.  And we will bring some over to our games.  And maybe even change them.  But you will never hear me put down Paintball and I do support their decision to play.

Honor system all the way.  Remember people when you don't call your hits the fun it taken out of the game pretty quick.

Jon
So go Airsoft

[Brendon]

I have to go with Jon and Dragon and heck Joe on this one. I tried to get into paintball, got myslef a cheap and easy starter gun, but NEVER  got to play. To much money, to long a drive(For my mother). But that doesn't mean I never wanted to try it. It always looked fun. Thats why I don't bash on paintballers. Now back to the topic of makers, I dislike the idea, the honor system does have flaws, but whats the point in making your gun super fast if one will just show up? 

[Metal]

I would be the guy Sarge talked about who got his KWA Gen1 broken by these marker bb's. I think the concept is great, but the idea of having the powder on the outside is stupid. They should know that crap is going to get everywhere.

Here's an idea though.... Any of you that have used or had to use Biodegradable BB's knows that they break realitively easy. In fact, they break so much easier than regualr BB's that admins are able to random test people (when they are supposed to be using Bio's) by bringing a hammer or a pair of pliers and smashing the BB. Bio's just crush. They whole thing. Regular BB's either deform or break in half and that's about it. So what if you made a shell out of bio BB metieral and filled the INSIDE with a small amount of crushed bio BB's or whatever? Of coarse the shell would have to be much thicker than those of the paintball BB's but not so much you couldn't have any marking meterial inside. Most people are naturally going to think of having to halves of a BB's (like a split canteloupe) and filling those with marking meterial then putting them together. Yes, that would more than likely create a seam characteristic of crappy BB's. So, the only way to do this is to do it the way I just mentioned, but make the BB's slightly larger than they should be, then send them trough some kind of final tumbling or polishing stage where they get sized down and the seam or 'burr' is eliminated in the process. OR, they could engineer a type of plastic that comes in a power for and needs to be cured by heat. They could inject he powered plastic into molds and heat them from the outside for a pre determined amount of time enough to cure and harden a certain amount of 'shell' around the outside leaving some uncured powder on the inside. Unfortunaley, unless the injection port could be closed off with precision, these BB's too would need to be tumbled or polished afterwards.

This also brings up another good point about having powder on the indside versus solid plastic. Anyone who has ever seen a broken BB knows that there is ALWAYS and air bubble in there. The lighter the BB, the bigger that air bubble is. The bigger that bubble, the less accurate it is and already more prone to breakage. With a well packed, fairly dense poweder center to your BB's you won't have anything off ceter to cause it to fly funny at further ranges. Consistancy is the KEY to accuracy, and we're already shooting a freaking sphere that has a fairly unpredictable flight path and trajectory to begin with without the aid of hopup.

I think the marker BB can be accomplished, we just haven't figured out a cheap, effective, and reliable way to do it yet. Also, that is the most common complaint I hear from paintballers is the lack of mark after a hit from a BB.

[Dragon]

Also, that is the most common complaint I hear from paintballers is the lack of mark after a hit from a BB.

they obviously didn't see the "mark" on my nose after BFL... LOL!

The ONLY issue I see ( besides more machining and higher cost) with the Bio-Shell and Fill, is that it'd change the density of the BB themselves, and quite possibly, even if weight/distribution was alright or refined...
most likely, though not 100% sure, you'd have to hit a "hard target" in order to break the "thicker shell".

 Hits on soft skin, or "loose gear" might not "break the shell".

 Then you gotta get in that realm of... IS that a hit, because it didn't "break"? ( or I didn't get hit! See there isn't any paint or powder! ... A Common Issue in Paintball if I am not mistaken.)

If we have to rely on the "honor system" in part , I don't see why we can't just use it exclusively.

 It's a "good thought" though, I'd give an A+ for effort alone!

[Renagade]

If you dont have the Honor nor Integerity to say "HIT!"
You dont belong in airsoft nor any extreme sport.

Just the fact that if you dont have Honesty in a game then you dont have honesty in life
and then you just SUCK as a person.

[Metal]

Dragon is right about the paintballs NOT breaking. I hear it's when they hurt the worst. Only thing is though, in paintball a 'bounce' as they call it, is pretty much an accepted rule of 'no break, not out'. That's just how they like to roll, and that's fine if that's the way they like it. Then again, paintballers consider gun and hopper hits as 'outs' where as in almost all airsoft and MilSim, gun hits almost never count.

I totally agree with Dragon's point of if we gotta use the honor system sometimes we might as well do it all the time. At least until a reliably breaking and marking BB is made.

My point of the BIO BB meterial is that those BB's already break way easier than standard BB's, so it would (in theory) be more reliable to break when hitting anything. Although a BB like that would pretty much be the end of mesh eye pro.

[Dragon]

It's just...

 well, I've done both.. and he "honor system" just simply seems to work better in my opinion.
It's simple, and effective if used.

 Now, am I to say, SOMETIMES I wish I had marking BBs on guys that weren't calling hits out there... yep.

 No matter what, you are going to get the guys that don't use the "honor system" as they SHOULD.

 if everyone does use it, it's an almost flawless system though.

 Again, I have to refer to INTENTIONAL disregard for hits, and the "accidental" non-hit calls aspects.

 Even I TRY my BEST to call hits, even in instances I'm sure it bounced or ricochet off a surface first.
I can't say... there has never been a time, where I might have gotten hit, and was simply not aware I was getting hit. I'm positive.. I have been in that situation at some point.  EVERYONE does at some point.

 Those types of "accidents" , I try to account for as just being a part of the nature of the hobby itself, and I don't begrudge anyone for unknowingly not calling a hit, they didn't feel, hear, or see.

 An INSTANCE or example.. On D-9's field.

 Bash calls his hits.  In one weird game we played, where we switched "teams" depending on who shot ya...
Bash was across the creek from me, un-aware I was there.  He was running from another person, shooting much closer to him. With his back to me, and the distance... he did not feel, nor hear my shots over the OPFOR already hammering at him.
I hit him. I could see my shots roll off his hydro carrier, or plink straight down to the ground off him. 
I actually laughed at the situation, cause I know if he had known it was me that hit him , he woulda called it.
I told him later that I did, and he confirmed with everything else going on, he wasn't aware he was hit at all.
No big deal...

 Now at ( Censored) .. err, a big event... I watched roof top shooters, ignore mag after mag of hits. I had direct line of sight to em, and I was doing the shooting.  These guys simply did not call anything, until the ADMIN got close enough to be able to investigate.
That ticks me off, cause I know they knew they were getting hit.

They didn't play "honorably" until there was a chance they would get caught "cheating".

So, all in all... the "honor system works" , but only if everyone uses it equally.

 Lets say for arguments sake that "marking BBs" were perfected though... how much spite and -"do-overs" are there going to be.. simply because you got marked, and still weren't aware you got hit? 
How much DISRUPTION to the flow of games and Events is it going to "cause" by default?

 probably alot more than you care to want to have to deal with.

 Yes, it MIGHT smooth out some cheating aspects of course...
but I think it kinda creates more problems than it solves, that don't have anything to do with blatant cheating.

 How to best deal with players that don't call hits?
First go to the Admin.  The Admin has the power to put a stop to it.
Do not take matters into your own hands, and try to "punish" a cheater by hammering him full auto.
If the Admin warns, and the cheater still cheats...
Again, file a complaint.
Eventually, something somewhere will get noticed and done about it.

 Like on D-9's field... if I EVER have to be pulled and confront a player he's not calling hits... woe be to that person! Most likely, he will be leaving early, and not invited back.. ever.
Thats because I already know the others that play... their experience levels, and I know if someone is blatantly cheating ( yes, us ADMIN can tell ) ... I simply don't want that influence on the field, or my players that DO play honorably, to get frustrated and stop participating.

I cut some slack to new or in-experienced players of course... to a degree. I think everyone does.
If things are a consistent issue though, I'm gonna have words, and the recipient isn't going to like me for the rest of his natural life I bet.

 It's simple...
This HOBBY isn't about being "the best" or the" Winner"...  it's about FUN and participating in a COLLABORATIVE effort.
Someone has to get hit at some point. It's the very nature of how it's enjoyed...

 So, all in all... I think Honor system works , if it is applied and used properly.
I see no need for "marking" BBs to be honest.

 

[Boba Fett]

haha I'm such a bad player that one time I was playing with cheaters and didn't even realize they were cheating. Then a good player told me they weren't calling hits. ha I had no idea since I never hit anybody anyways! haha