What makes great MilSim to you?

[Dragon]

 I was just generally curious about what folks had to say on the topic.

To kinda keep it from going haywire... I'll be more specific.

 what traits should be included , in your opinion to make a great MilSim Op?

[j man 3]

organized

[Dragon]

Thats it? ... lol, not that isn't a really great answer, cause it is!

 When the admin obviously have everything in order, and aren't scrambling around ... the entire OP goes smoothly. Bad planning and "winging it" usually ends up frustrating alot of Operators.

 But I was kinda looking for a bit more feed-back, more details of things IN a MilSim OP folks like.

[j man 3]

Im just saying iv only been to a few games and the organized ones go very well even if the story to them or possibly the players arent great.

[Metal]

In light of what we esperienced at OP Pheonix III, I'd have to say the caliber of players attending the OP can make a big difference as well as some very experienced people to do the admining.

Also, and I say this not to exclude the beginers, but uniform requirements. If you're playing MilSim you're doing exatly that, military simulation. Looking the part really adds to the whole experiene. Some guys really complain about that stuff, but honestly it's not asking that much of the players to have thier uniforms in order. It's not like they're asking you to all have the same PC's and all that jazz, just where they're at least all wearing woodland or desert or whatever you wana make the requirements.

Allot of people threw stupid fits about OKI6 requiring military style boots with ankle support. I'm not sure that they should necessarily have to be a miliarty style boot, but if you're playing on rugged terrain, it would be in your best interest to wear footwear with good ankle support to protect youself from injury.

A good back story can't hurt either.

On the subject of organization, make sure all the admins know the story well and are able to improvise, adapt, and overcome if things don't go exactly as planned in order to get the desired outcome, or at least do something if it's too one-sided.

Also, I believe if your team is gonna be representing some real life BAMF's, you need at least be better than the average Joe (no pun intended). Usually the guys representing Seals, Spetznaz, Rangers, Green Berets, you name it, are a very small part of the game but are usually written in to play a large role or have a big impact on the game and things don't really go well if you just have a bunch of back yard guys that make up those groups. Again, I'm not intending to hurt anybodies feelings with this statement, but I have several of our own OPs not go as planned because the decision was made to make all teams fill up on the 'first come, first serve' principal. Plus, for me anyway, when I first got into this game the idea of working my reputation and skills up to get on a special team made me even hungrier for the game and made me attend more OPs.

[Dragon]

@ metal, if you don't mind, I'd like to pick apart some of what you posted, and give my insight on it as well.

I'd have to say the caliber of players attending the OP can make a big difference as well as some very experienced people to do the admining.

I agree totally on the ADMIN part 100%.  Unfortunately... Player Caliber isn't something easily "controlled".
I mean, first off... airsoft players do have to start somewhere, and if they jump right in, and try to go MilSim, even with-out experience, that says alot in my book.  Taking that "leap" willingly, is the first step I do think.
Now, from talking with you and D-9 guys about the OP Pheonix, I totally understand the reason you tossed that out there.

 For some reason, some "airsoft players" , go to these events, thinking it' s just another "force on force" or shooting fest. Their mannerism and play style are more geared towards Rec Style play, and it seems many of them either just don't know any better, or they have no desire to get with the program to begin with.  I know that sounded a bit harsh, but it is just the reality of it.
MilSim however... is more than just shooting OPFOR, or seeing how many Kills you can rack up.  

 MilSim is more about ENTIRE Team based Objectives, Missions, following orders ... while there is a heavy placement of COMBAT in MilSIm, it isn't the only part of it.  I tell everyone, if you just want to shoot at folks, come to our Triggerdays.  
If you want to be MilSim, or go to MilSim events... strive to be more than just a trigger-happy person , with a CoD mentality.
(I HIGHLY Suggest subscribing to TacSim Magazine.  You'll be able to read on various levels of MilSim in it, and get a better understanding of the differences between MilSim and regular Airsoft, if you are new to MilSim, or thinking about getting into it.)

Also, and I say this not to exclude the beginers, but uniform requirements. If you're playing MilSim you're doing exatly that, military simulation. Looking the part really adds to the whole experiene.

 Uniforms are a MUST for MilSim OPs , especially the larger ones.  Not only does it help YOU the OPERATOR, get into the "Role" you are portraying, .. it helps with things like, IDENTIFICATION of friendlies, and OPFOR , and that helps lessen frustration of all the players involved.
 Now I did gripe about OKI6's Uniform requirements... but only because they were so SPECIFIC.  I see after being there, why of it now.  I Still dislike that some teams and special teams have Uniform Options, where it was difficult to distinguish from other teams at a distance.  I would have preferred that these folks, had to wear something that really set them apart from the regular forces.  Like, Neon Pink armbands or something.
Especially after our own IFOK Sided "special Team, in Desert Tiger stripes", turned and open fired on me and the Marines I was Reconing with the last day. They could tell WE were DCU ( the butt-holes) , but when they opened up on us, the marines thought they were CG-18 in Multicam, because they looked similar at that distance and sun rays filtering through the woods. ( Of course, we found cg-18 , or part of it much later. )

But, standard green vs tan works really well for most Ops.

Allot of people threw stupid fits about OKI6 requiring military style boots with ankle support. I'm not sure that they should necessarily have to be a miliarty style boot, but if you're playing on rugged terrain, it would be in your best interest to wear footwear with good ankle support to protect youself from injury.

I threw a fit about having to have MilSpec boots, yes. Not for myself, but for others. I have MilSpec boots.  ( at first that Rule, did sate, must be ISSUED BOOTS ) and thats where the initial out-cry cam from. They revised it quickly ( in a week I think) , to a more generally boot requirement, but still folks weren't happy. Still, I thought any supporting boot should suffice, not just Military boots.
BUT
 I do support the Boots, with ankle support.  Shoes cannot keep you from twisting your ankles. Shoes are not made for rugged terrain. Boots are. Keep your feet and body safe.

A good back story can't hurt either.

I think this is a MUST for MilSim, even if you don't have any LARP to it at all.
Players must know, what their Team is about when signing up for it. What the "cause is"... Why are they fighting?
In fact, despite the great Event, I though OKI6 could have used a bit more of "back-story", based on that EVENT. Too much was "assumed" you knew what went on previously in earlier OK Invasions. They did do a general "story" for it, but it really wasn't anything that grabbed anyone's interest much at all.

I have several of our own OPs not go as planned because the decision was made to make all teams fill up on the 'first come, first serve' principal.

I've seen this myself, even made this mistake myself before.  
Such as BHD... All of D-9 barely got to be on the US side , just by luck really. Only because of all the +1s that showed up, were we able to get BenShee with the rest of us.
I too think, if folks are going to play on the "special team" as something than ordinary soldiers ... they need not only to have the right mindset, but also have the look and gear to match the skills.  
It really buggs me when someone wants to be on the EOD team, and doesn't even know what EOD stands for, lol.

[Pup]

Respect, Teamwork, Communication, Coordination.

People can get really nitpicky about how everyone looks, but I think the more important thing is how everyone plays and how they interact with their teammates. Back when SA played and hosted a lot of MilSim events, it was awesome.
 
I was extremely new to both airsoft and milsim at the time. I usually kept to myself for the most part and just followed everyone else's lead. Everyone kept a nice tone about everything. We were serious when we needed to be and then had a few laughs about it all afterwards.

I doubt I ever got much actual shooting done, but moving through the field as a team and communicating with others was really awesome. Learning all of the hand signals, properly reading a map, counting pace, how to properly communicate via radio, moving as a fire-team; it was an experience I'll never forget. I remember getting lost with dethwish up at a KCAA game and we just took a break on this log until we found out where we were in relation to the rest of our fire-team.

I don't think MilSim is about getting that trigger time in more so than it is bonding with other people that are interested in the same things you are.

I wish all that stuff still went on.

[Shaggy]

Question: Is the highest level of MilSim actually being in the military? If so then I am on my way to be a god among mortals! Haha Just kidding.

Answer: Good Story, Obtainable Objectives, Continuity in team look, and Organization

Good story is important because it gives you something more to think about than just "I am shooting the guys in the green because they are in front of me!". Id rather have a good story than good players. With a good story all the objectives flow better and make more sense. You will always get more adrenaline going and be pumped up if you believe you are actually fighting for something rather than just shooting at people.

If it feels like you cant win or reach the next objective then you will give up and play worse. There always needs to be another way to an objective or another way to get around obstacles in the way.

Continuity in team look is essential for a flowing battle ground. For contractors and regular forces alike. Requiring people to wear things similar is a must. Contractors should be required to possibly get a team shirt made or make it a complete contrast difference in what they wear that you cant mistake them for anyone else. Even another PMC. Regular forces need to have either a Tan or Green cammies. Special Ops should have a precise cammie regiment. If its a yearly event make it a standardized regulation on each outfit.

Organization. We learned alot of "planning" stuff in boot camp. Supervision. Supervision is the most important. <-- A diddy we had to learn. It was longer, but whatever. Without organization there might as well not be an Event. Just have people show up to shoot crazily at each other.

~Shaggy

[porkchop]

Two words: AMMO LIMITS! Sorry, but I don't believe there's such a thing as a 5000rnd M4!

[bgallion]

MilSim is Military Simulation. (Obviously lol) So, making it as close to the actual thing is what I consider good MilSim.  What does that entail?

The Basics.
Uniform requirements - Uniformity, you do not see marines going into battle in blue jeans and a dress shirt.  National militaries have uniform requirements.
Gear requirements.    -
Weapon requirements - You do not see U.S. Soldiers using Type 95 rifles from China).
Ammunition limitations - As someone said earlier.  Riflemen should not have the ability to shot a continuous 500 rounds.  Ammo restrictions should be set in place.  Mid/ Low caps.

More in depth
Troop Leading Procedures.  TLP's
     - Warning Orders (Warn-O's).
     - Operations Orders (OpOrd).  Situation, Mission, Execution, Service and Support (Administration and Logistics for USMC), Command and Signal.
     - Rehearsals
     - Pre Combat Inspections (PCI's) make sure everyone has what they need for the mission.
Command Staff - interpret intel, give orders, debrief squads/ units after missions, etc.  

Those are things that I feel make up the most basic MilSim.  The more in depth you go, the better the MilSim.  But Airsoft, is NOT MilSim.  Airsoft is a combat simulator.  CTF is not MilSim, its a game style.  In my book, if you do not have uniform, gear, gun, and ammo requirements along with OpOrders, PCI's, and a Command Staff etc., you are not doing MilSim.  You are just playing an airsoft game.

As for those who say, "Why do you have to have OpOrders, PCI's, Command staff, etc. in MilSim?"  

The answer is simple.  It is MilSim, Military Simulation.  For those who are/ were in the military, how many times did you go out on a mission without knowing who you were fighting, what the objective was, who was supporting you, how you are going to execute the objective (the plan), what your job is in the plan, etc.?  My guess is you went through an OpOrd and had a plan for almost every single mission. We are simulating the Military.  Telling people the objective is to go assault this area and bring back a crate of something bad and then saying "GO" is not MilSim.  People just run up there play force on force until they find the crate and then bring it back.  No plan, no organization, no anything.  That is just an airsoft game.  MilSim is more than that.

My two cents.

[det. mcclane]

This man speaks truth. Complete difference between regular games and milsim, well put sir.

[Dragon]

I guess on that note, I fall way short on expectations then, ...

 I will probably just stick to Airsoft and stop kidding myself about being an OP creator.

 I thought MilSim, as Airsoft is concerned... is suppose be Fun.
Real Military = not Fun. There isn't anything "fun" about the BS you have to do or go through. I have been there and done that. I was in it.

 Airsoft MilSim in my opinion is a form of exaggerated combat simulation. Everything is designed to engage OPFOR, Hold Positions,complete ( or fail ) objectives, and maneuvers... all of it revolves around combat.

 Anyone can go out, and be "MilSim" getting the right gear , and just go on "patrol" with no OPFOR, as long as they have the above requirements met. You don't even have to have an airsoft weapon.  Just get your orders, your gear, and go hump it 20 miles a day somewhere ( pre-desired locations) for a week with some buddies, occasionally bark orders no one understands but the CO... form ranks , and adhere to the command structure... and thats pretty much more Military Simulation than any Airsoft can ever be.
( to make it more realistic... try starving for a full two days, then eat crappy tasting food, make sure to sleep  1 hour every 22 hours. and go non-stop for 4 days at a time like that. )

Now granted... I try to keep away from CTF, and other obvious Force on Force situations when I can help it.
 OP Thunderball 1 , was a success in the fact almost everyone had fun ... but failed in being real MilSim. I leaned on what I knew about Force on Force more than what I should have there. Was a learning experience.
OKI6 taught me alot, and I picked up on tips and learned some things not to do for MilSim OPs because of Thunderball, talking to Claymore and Frosty , experiences from MilSim OPs we've attended...  and our triggerdays where I've played around with different things to do.

 But , I can't justify being so hard core in Airsoft MilSim , where you can't get anyone to play at all... because requirements are too strict. It's definitely a fine line between... being "too realistic" and not Realistic enough.  I would lean towards not realistic enough, and have had to to keep players interested in what I'm offering.

 Those "hardcore" OPs ... are far and few between, maybe one or two year at most?  I'm thinking Eastwind there in my mind.  
 I went personally to one of the biggest "MilSim Events" there is in the mid west. OKI 6, in the OK I series... even then... when you broke it down to it's basics... was more pure airsoft than it was MilSim. It was still a big wad of force on force. ( Despite that F on F , being from multiple teams at once. ) Players or Operators ( especially the more experienced ones) treated it more like a big Force on Force.  I was given a mission by Claymore to deliver flares to our CIA Component on our side ( defending the flag more or less until it got there. )
 
 I'm not saying you are wrong, not at all.  I even agree with almost all of what you said.

 But I can't write OPs and get away from F on F at all... I don't think anyone can... unless you remove all the combat aspect of Airsoft from the OP to begin with.
 Experience has shown me... that you start getting too sticky with requirements, you don't get players... or enough to even do the OP to begin with. ( Such as in FP... I had to shut down the PLA , simply cause no one desired to meet the uniform requirements, and had a lack of interest cause it had more requirements than the other two factions. ) I even had to remove requirements from other teams, just so folks would start signing up.  Didn't want to... but can't run an OP or Play one with just 5 people... no matter how good they are.
 It doesn't matter if you put the effort into something great... the first thing people look at is what's required of them to do it, and if they got the money to get it to do it or play in it.

 So knowing that... I at least, have found I MUST toggle that fine line I stated above , best I can, when trying to write OPs , Missions, Objectives.
It is in vain, if you don't get enough players or operators to do it to begin with.

 Plus... players and Operators want shooting time. Hands down.  Even in OKi6 ... the second most complained about aspect was, guard duty... no action for hours and hours for some folks. ( The first biggest complaint was the helicopter stuff. )
Even though Guard duty is more "MilSim"... we all spent 100 bucks plus. Those that spent 100 bucks, to watch or hear everyone else have fun for 26 hours, and they got action for 2 hours total... I think felt cheated in the experience.
 Can't say I blame em... I wouldn't spend money, just to sit on my butt 3/4rths of an Event... no matter how realistic it seems.  I probably wouldn't go back the "next time" either.

So, yeah... you do have to "curb" realism , and provide more opportunities based in or around direct confrontations ( combat simulation) , or ... players loose interest and don't come back. What's the point in buying an airsoft gun, if you don't get to use it right? Why play in an OP if you wasted that money on that investment?

So, taking the fact.. you simply can't get away from certain aspects, you have to work with what you got left over.

 I do think Uniforms are a must, but I don't see the need to be so nitpicky down to every stitch, and if you must wear HSLD Underwear. ( I know.. absurd, but I exaggerated to make a point.)

 Ammo Limits... I like those as well, as I like mid/low caps only, but players in general seem to favor the option of using high caps ... even if they don't actually use High Caps.  

I like Objectives. I Like Missions.  You can set up all the Intell you want to, write up loads of material... and when push comes to shove, it all breaks down the minute it get's in a CO's hands.
When it comes to Operators... the OpOrders, PCI's, Command staff duties... start breaking down , because they are only going to put as much effort in it, to get by on and get to where they can shoot at people.

 All those reasons I stated , is why I asked this question originally.  I wanted insight as to what folks liked and desired, that I could review and keep in mind.

 I am trying to find that ground to stand on.  I'd like to make events that blow folk's mind, be more MilSim true... yet be so fun, you got people begging ya to hurry up and do another.

But, ... I'm still searching for that "Middle Ground" that would appeal to everyone I guess.


 All this came across sounding picky or something I took offense at. I did not just to clarify.

It's a great topic, and even though I'm still a tad frustrated over trying to find what will work for everyone... , I like reading the responses and considering everything everyone says.

The difficult thing in designing Events and OPs... you must appeal to a targeted audience to begin with, that limits what you can do with what you have to work with.  That margin gets even narrower as you start making it too complex, or to difficult/expensive to make the grade.
I enjoy MilSim... I like playing in MilSim Events. I like team work, and thinking beyond personal gains in objectives. I like having clear orders ( another thing that OKi6 had a lack of was good leaders.Only a few had what it took... not nearly enough. ) , and mission briefings... ect, ect, ect...
But I can't make other players like what I like.
Even though I enjoy all that.. there are Events I will not go to as well... such as Eastwind, but thats because it' s too "period specific" and a tad bit to "hard core realistic" for my taste.

I do think... you can get too "realistic" as far as Airsoft MilSim is concerned.  
I also think, you can get to "Un-realistic" for it to not be MilSim at all.

 

[bgallion]

I thought MilSim, as Airsoft is concerned... is suppose be Fun.

Before I start, to some people:  more realistic = more fun.  

I understand exactly where you are coming from though.  Event planning is frustrating.  That is why I stepped down from being an SA Admin.  There is just no way to please everyone.

Anyway,  I get what you are saying that you think MilSim is exaggerated combat simulation.  I feel as though I have frustrated you by my post earlier.  But in hindsight, you asked a question and I answered it.  You asked what is great MilSim? Well, great MilSim to me is essentially what you posted... well without the sarcastic examples thrown in there. lol

Anyone can go out, and be "MilSim" getting the right gear , and just go on "patrol" with no OPFOR, as long as they have the above requirements met. You don't even have to have an airsoft weapon.  Just get your orders, your gear, and go hump it 20 miles a day somewhere ( pre-desired locations) for a week with some buddies, occasionally bark orders no one understands but the CO... form ranks , and adhere to the command structure... and thats pretty much more Military Simulation than any Airsoft can ever be.
( to make it more realistic... try starving for a full two days, then eat crappy tasting food, make sure to sleep  1 hour every 22 hours. and go non-stop for 4 days at a time like that. )

That is MilSim.  Airsoft is not MilSim.  Airsoft is simply a combat simulator like paintball, MILES gear, sim-munition,  etc.  As the sport/ hobby of airsoft has grown, the noobie people began calling it MilSim because they heard it somewhere and like the sound of it.  And then it caught on with the whole community. I just for one do not consider just having a uniform, gun, gear (dressing up) and having some objectives to be MilSim.  Its so much more than that.

As far as OKI, I honestly do not consider that MilSim either.  Even though that is what it's title is.  OKI just seemed like a whole bunch of force of force disguised as objectives. The only true MilSim event I have been to is EASTWIND.  And you hit the nail on the head, not every likes that stuff.  Which is completely fine.  99% of Airsoft, Paintball, etc. players want trigger time.  They want Call of Duty. They simply want to get their gun off and go home.  And there is nothing wrong with that.  I just consider "their" version of MilSim to be incorrect.

Here is a short, abbreviated story from EW.
Commanders Intent:  Infiltrate Eastbloc territory and disrupt vehicle operations to assist other NATO forces assaulting the Airfield.  
0200 in the morning we step off and do a night movement deep into Eastbloc territory (2 click movement I think).  At 0730 we began recon on Eastbloc vehicle traffic from our Patrol Base we set up and radio in SALUTE reports to the CP, TOC, FOB (whatever floats your boat) for the next couple of hours.  At 1000 we began setting up ambush sites along the roads.  Moving our ambush site every couple of hours.  Finally, in our 3rd ambush site.  We destroyed a Unimog (sp?) (Soviet troop transport vehicle).  Then as we were clearing the area a UAZ pulled up behind us with an RPK gunner in the passenger seat.  The 6 of us all engaged the vehicle and killed its passengers before they realized what happened.  After this ambush we humped to high ground to radio in the status of our ambush, but had some trouble contacting the CP.  So we headed back to the FOB to debrief.  
Total mission time: apx 15 hrs.  Trigger time: about 1 min 30 seconds.  Total enemy soldiers killed: 15-17.  (I can't remember exactly)

That is MilSim to me. I love that stuff.  Shooting for a min out of 14 hrs and accomplishing something like that is so much more rewarding to me than shooting my gun until my battery dies.  Now, how many people would choose that over a trigger day?  Maybe 1% of the airsoft population.  And thats fine.  Its not everybody's cup of tea.  But that is what Military Simulation is to me.

As far as trying to run a "hardcore" MilSim Op?  Yes, it is next to impossible bc people look at the requirements and say, "**** that" lol.  The trick is to run airsoft games, Ops, what ever you want to call them in order to build numbers.  Then when you have those ops and people are coming out to play a lot, bring up the idea of the MilSim game you want to run.  If people are not interested in what they have to do in order to go.  Then you don't even try to do the MilSim game.   Only plan one once you have the minimum amount of players needed interested in what you want to do.  Otherwise it will become a flop.

In conclusion, I simply answered what MilSim is to me.  It is definitely not what everyone likes to do.  Hence, why nobody responds to the topics I post on this forum haha
But if you want to run an airsoft game and call it "MilSim" more power to you.  I am not saying my version of MilSim is right or wrong so I can not say someone's version of MilSim is correct or incorrect. Because honestly, people can debate what MilSim is until the cows come home.  But, my advice to you is, as an event coordinator you should find that middle ground like you mentioned.  Come up with a game that is not hardcore MilSim, but is not simply just a force on force.  Then you will get the best of both worlds and my guess is that if enough people like your games then your numbers will continue to grow.

P.S.- And as far as you saying you will never attend EW because it is too period specific and hard core realistic... I think the majority of people agree with you.  But my challenge to you, and everyone the like, is to not judge a book by its cover and simply come out for 1 day of operations.  I personally think that spending $20 to see if you like something that is extremely related to your "airsoft" or "milsim" hobby is a steal.  And if you don't want to even try it to see if you like it... no problem.  As we have agreed, its not everyones cup of tea.  But damn, I do enjoy me a cup of tea (or hot cocoa) at 0500 in the morning after getting back from a cold and rainy patrol.  

  
****ADD ON:  I thought of this after the fact.  With Operation EASTWIND, you are not just paying for an airsoft game, a MilSim event, or getting trigger time.  If you ask the majority of the EASTWIND community what they go to EW for... I'm willing to bet that they will say the experience.  The experience you get from the event rivals all others.  Like the one I posted up above about our ambush.  The feeling you get when after a day or two of patrolling and training, you get into contact with Eastbloc players.  That are all in Eastbloc uniforms wielding Kalashnikov weapons (and in EW IV at least, three of them actually spoke Russian).  The adrenaline that I felt when I saw Russian soldier maneuvering and screaming out in Russian was amazing.  I have never felt anything like that in any airsoft game I have attended.  The best way I can put it is like this:

You do not attend Operation EASTWIND.... you are a part of it.  THAT, my friend, is what MilSim is all about.

[Metal]

Well Dragon, I honestly think it really takes quite a bit of pretty seasoned players and honestly enough money to equire the things that make up MilSim. No one thinks lesser of anyone for having a goal and working towards it as we in D9 are as far as the OPs we put on. I think D9 is far ahead of where a mojority of teams are in our goal of all out MilSim. I think our first MAJOR step is going to be aquiring our own land to build on. Yes, it may be a long time or even never when we reach a level on par with MSE, but hey, it's a good goal to shoot for and if we shoot high even we fall short of our goal we'll still be on the right track.

Other than that, I agree with bgallion.

[Joe]

I think only a very few players are interested in the level of Mil-Sim described above.  I don't mind goals and orders but at some point, hey, it's a game.  I signed up and paid to play a game.  If I wanted the in-depth Mil-Sim experience, I'd have enlisted and been paid to do it.

Props to Dragon, Adam, Jesse, Shaggy and our other veterans who serve or have served and who play.  Dragon served in the Middle East around the Desert Shield/Storm period.  He didn't bring it up so I will.  He knows "Mil-Sim" because he's done Mil-Real.  

I've tried to stay out of this topic but the question's been rolling around in my head since I started playing airsoft.  This is an open question for all and I ask it without nastiness or snarkiness:

If someone is really into Mil-Sim, then why not enlist?  

After all, in the service one receives the training, equipment and experience of doing the stuff for real that airsoft can only (to varying degrees) simulate.

Thoughts?