Author Topic: FPS does NOT = Range  (Read 19951 times)

j man 3

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2011, 04:41:11 PM »
i did vaguely specify actually at the top ^^^ "this is true in fact to a degree depending on bb weight it can decrease the range in some special cases." In SPECIAL cases it dose become an effect with the fact that the bb will hit max velocity and then slow down from there dramatically.

Metal

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2011, 03:38:47 AM »
That tends to happen with lighter BB's. You see that in the real world fire arms too. We'll use my favorite examples, the 7mm Remington Magnum and the old 7x57mm Mauser. The 7x57mm Mauser has been used to kill pretty much anything that walk, crawls, or flies around the world since it's introduction in the late 1800's. The 7mm Remington magnum has also been used to kill a lot of game, and there is an illusion among most hunters that it is in some way superior to the 7x57mm Mauser. The 7mm mag shoots pretty hot, but the problem with most 7mm's is the availibility of heavier bullets, so usually the bullets that are used in the magnum are the same as the standard bullets found in the 7mm Mauser. This results in the 7mm mag firing several hundred feet per second faster at the muzzle than the 7mm Mauser. The first problem for the 7mm magnum is that it requires sometimes up to 60% MORE powder than the 7mm Mauser to gain as little as a 20% velocity advantage at the muzzle. Already sound like a lost cause, huh? Well out at about 200- 300 yards, the bullet from the 7mm mag has slowed down to the nearly the same velocity as the one from the 7mm Mauser. So the 7mm mag pretty much blows all it's steam real quick then peters out quick as well. This, in the realoading community, is known as being 'overbore'. Having too much power behind a smaller bullet to where diminished results are had. Now, If you were to start shooting some significantly heavier bullets in the 7mm mag, you would really start to see more of a performance gap between the two.

To switch this over into airsoft terms for you guys, the 7mm mag would be like having a field gun that shot 400fps and shooting .20g BB's in it. You're simply not gonna get very good results out of that due to that .20g bb has a point of diminished return in performance. The 7mm Mauser would be more like a field gun shooting somewhere in the ballpark of 330-350fps with .20g bb's. In that range the .20g is much more stable and can be used much more effectively. Now if the 400fps gun goes to shooting .25g bb's it will bring it's muzzle velocity down to about 370fps, BUT it will be doing so with a projectile with 25% more weight and in effect will travel farther, be more stable and accurate, and will be much less effected by outside factors like wind and foliage.

To put into even simpler forms, shooting a .20g bb at 400fps would be like throwing a wadded up piece of paper. Yeah, it's gonna leave your hand fast, but it's gonna poop out real quick too. Throw a small rock instead. It will leave your hand slower, but it's gonna go much farther and be more useful.

Boba Fett

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2011, 11:19:06 AM »
To put into even simpler forms, shooting a .20g bb at 400fps would be like throwing a wadded up piece of paper. Yeah, it's gonna leave your hand fast, but it's gonna poop out real quick too. Throw a small rock instead. It will leave your hand slower, but it's gonna go much farther and be more useful.

^ Right on mate!

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2011, 11:48:26 AM »
hrrmmm....

 Looking back, i didn't ever say that FPS doesn't do anything for range, but I didn't specify it either...

 My point was, FPS is a "focus" that most folks have, and it doesn't mean as much as one would automatically "assume".  It does mean SOMETHING ( hence my point of airseal ) , but in a base form, it doesn't mean Everything.

 To answer above... no, a FPS measurement has nothing to do with velocity. ( Unless we are using different definitions of velocity, of such I could be mistaken on what you meant. )
FPS = Feet Per Second.  
Out of a Chrono... the thing is, it either passes through a series of lights, or through a "radar" like sound point, that determines how fast an object is moving.  It's kinda the same principle of a baseball pitcher, throwing a pitch, and having it measured in Miles Per Hour ( MPH) .
FPS is a unit of measurement of speed.

 Above I referred to "joules" ... because I mentioned TMs and Japan's standards for airsoft gun operations.
Joules, measures velocity and speed, and I'm not sure what else... Like I said, we don't have to worry about an external highly enforced governmental law regarding out hobby guns here, so it's kinda pointless to worry about the exact scientific formula for "joules".

TMs were made with as much FPS as Japan's laws allowed, and they had to get GOOD at getting some kind of real distance out of a light plastic BB, given their limitations. The result was... a low-end FPS ( compared to the US based FPS ranges ), with decent to most excellent performance out of those AEGs.

In it's "base" conception, it was a remarkable Idea, one that after a while of doing the "quest for better FPS" myself, reverted back to TRYING to shave FPS down , yet not reduce effective range or performance.
Thats because... i wanted MOST of my AEGS to hit the 300 - 380 FPS range for field OPs anyways.

Since I don't care much for ROF ( standard ROF is fine for me) , but definitely wanted my primaries to Chrono good at events, and have better trigger response, while not reducing my effective range so I'd be disadvantaged so much it cripples ya in play... Which is why I choose to lighten my springs, and go with a much more productive Airseal and Hop-up ( bucking) route.
I'm gaining just as much FPS out of a m100 spring, with the airseal and improved buckings, that are comparable with those that use a standard m120 spring.  
I found m120 springs, with the airseal and new buckings... put the FPS rating over most field limits for primaries. Since it's DUMB to have an MP5 set at DMR ratings, I choose a "less is more" route.

 Unlike Metal, I've not seen much of change in performance by polishing the barrels I have, it doesn't seem to me, to do any better than just having a "clean" barrel to begin with... but as he says, thats Apples and Oranges, he uses different set ups and barrels than I do.  I do see the "merits" of it theoretically though...
In Theory, a  polished BB already 'slick" ( good BBs only apply here please ) , being spun back ( for hop up ) should "offer" less Surface resistance as it "spins" , ( less surface area touching the barrel tube) , and having the barrel tube "slick" means less resistance where it does touch the tube as it flies down it.
 
 For the most part... keep in mind what you are TRYING to achieve.

 A plastic BB ... no matter what, is only going to "fly" so far , before it looses it's inertia and falls due to gravity and air resistance.

 But, since I play primarily in field/outdoors, and recently in a lot of MOUT situations... I've went with the "less is more" types of options. I simply don't "need" 400+ FPS , to accomplish my desired results.

Again... it fits me, my situation, and what I want to do with my AEGs.

 If I was to build another DMR, or if I wanted to lugg around a support weapon, I might take other approaches for different results.
 

Quote
To switch this over into airsoft terms for you guys, the 7mm mag would be like having a field gun that shot 400fps and shooting .20g BB's in it. You're simply not gonna get very good results out of that due to that .20g bb has a point of diminished return in performance. The 7mm Mauser would be more like a field gun shooting somewhere in the ballpark of 330-350fps with .20g bb's. In that range the .20g is much more stable and can be used much more effectively. Now if the 400fps gun goes to shooting .25g bb's it will bring it's muzzle velocity down to about 370fps, BUT it will be doing so with a projectile with 25% more weight and in effect will travel farther, be more stable and accurate, and will be much less effected by outside factors like wind and foliage.

 Which was what I meant by the "joules" reference , and the factor of BB weight in aegs in my first post, as well.

 I'm even considering, getting an AK .. BLEH! ... but trying to get it field limit FPS ( under 400 fps) , yet still thwack out .28s ...
Why? Well, i need something for my insurgenty load-out, that is well... Insurgenty.  AKs have a most incredible accuracy rate , one the best I've seen in AEGs... I hate the look, feel, and style of em... but, one cannot deny the end result of em at all. ( Not even me)
 Why .28s you ask?

Simple... foliage and wind , play more a factor at 200' from your gun barrel, and I desire to keep as much kinetic energy in my BBs as possible.  Since OK, and Kansas, and somewhat MO and AR have some degrees of wind almost all year around ... I'm just wanting to experiment.
The AK, best option for your money, and an already superb hop up and accurate gun... a great base to start with there.
Now mind you... I'm shooting for 380-400 FPS with a .20 , which probably translates into a 300 FPS max by using a .28 ( the AEG still has to pass a chrono with a .20. ) .. I could set the FPS rating at 380 FPS with a .28, but thats like what.. almost 500 FPS ( DMR or sniper only) rating with a .20?
What I am hoping for though, is not to have a BB traveling so slow, down range, that it could be outran by a turtle.  Thats my key element right there... getting accurate distance, yet not sacrificing speed of long ranged shots.
It to me, doesn't do any good to be able to hit a quarter at 250 feet, if your target simply is able to constantly slide right out of it's way before it gets there.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 12:06:02 PM by Dragon »

j man 3

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2011, 01:05:29 PM »
when you were talking about joulse what do you mean by velocity and speed? velocity = m/s and speed can mean the same thing witch would give you m^2 / s^2 witch is acceleration.

Metal

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2011, 03:07:57 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, joules is a measurement of potential energy or force produced by the particular projectile you're shooting. So basically you're measuring how 'hard' it will hit instead of how fast it's going. In all honesty, I think we should use joules rather than FPS in airsoft.

@ Dragon: You're gonna be pretty disapointed with shooting .28's with a gun rated at only 380fps. Also, you're math is a little off with how much the velocity drops when using heavier BB's. My M14 GBBR shoots at ~465fps with a .20g and ~395fps with a .30g. Most guns that shoot right at the 400fps mark with .20g's only drop down to about 365-370fps by going up to a .25g. I had the same idea as you, Dragon, about shooting .28g's in my field guns, but Bushman instructed me the more often that not you'll actuall loose range due to the .28g BB not being pushed enough to reach it's true potential.

Here's a link that you ALL should look at. This is a post on the MSE forums by the grand master himself, Bushman.
http://milsimevent.com/forums/showthread.php?1128-BushMan-s-6mm-Airsoft-Ballistics-Data
 



« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 03:23:04 PM by Metal »

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2011, 03:31:03 PM »
Quote
@ Dragon: You're gonna be pretty disapointed with shooting .28's with a gun rated at only 380fps. Also, you're math is a little off with how much the velocity drops when using heavier BB's. My M14 GBBR shoots at ~465fps with a .20g and ~395fps with a .30g. Most guns that shoot right at the 400fps mark with .20g's only drop down to about 365-370fps by going up to a .25g.

Which has been my worry...

but, is why we have a good base of experience, and fundamental examination in the team itself. :) between you and me, we can hammer that out. Or find a different option that will gain better if not same results as I desire or need.  It COULD be, me using the stupid AK, I might not have to worry so much about heavier shot grade anyways...
Like I said, it's a hell of a base platform, that even I cannot deny.

 ....

 here's my "issue" with measuring "impact" ...

There's a huge difference in impact at point blank, to 200 feet out... the kinetic energy drops rapidly the farther the BB flies...

But, it's like.. we can get "picky" trying to re-invent the wheel here, or use our base understood units of measure anyways. FPS, is misleading a tad bit... but Joules, is over-complicating the process entirely.

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2011, 03:45:29 PM »
when you were talking about joulse what do you mean by velocity and speed? velocity = m/s and speed can mean the same thing witch would give you m^2 / s^2 witch is acceleration.

Umm.. somewhat...

 acceleration is caused by air-pressure behind the BB. The "faster" the air pressure "pushes" the BB, the more you got transferring to the BB as it flies away...

Regardless of your spring size... a m100 or a m5000 ( hehehe ) ... your cylinder will only hold so much air to begin with. ( Volume of "energy" )

It's not like the Spring itself... hits the BB with a hammer blow, or impact... it pushes a piston, that compresses air. ( "Energy" transfer )

the barrel ... focuses the BB flight path, and the air flowing behind it. ( Accelerated/concentrated force of previous "energy" )
 ( the air nozzle I think as well... it's hard to say if thats a part of the "barrel system" , or Piston system lol. )

but... like i said, I'm not a physics major... nor am I a math wizard. 

The actual science is lost on me... but I d know results of trying different things , compared to what you can buy stock. I understand the main functions of the parts of an AEG, and am grasping how little things, can make huge impacts on performance.

 When I get crap wrong, lol... I got Cody and Metal to laugh at me, and put me back into the "really real world" focus. :)

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2011, 03:57:12 PM »
According to Bushman's little chart, there isn't an effective FPS rate for .28s in field grade primaries ( 400 FPS or lower) ... ???

It's ONLY .03 ( 3 hundredths ) of a gram over a .25... , he's probably right, but seems odd you'd HAVE to do DMR velocity or greater. 

 

Metal

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 03:17:05 AM »
Well, as you said, an AK might be an exception to the rule. I know when I first got my G&G GR16 and it was shooting 420fps right out of the box, I almost had to shoot .28g's in it to get any kind of flat accurate shots out of it. As soon as I lowered the velocity to under the field maximum, .28g's were no longer an option. It was suprising to see that little bit of velocity make that much difference, but it did. Then again, that gun is an M series and not an AK and therefore it's hopup is less effective. I've had OK luck with .28g's in my CYMA AK74 which shoots right around the 400fps mark. I honestly think I get a tad bit more range with .25g's while sacrificing very little accuracy.

I'd barrow some .28g's from some one on the team and try them out before jumping head first into it.

j man 3

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2011, 09:58:03 AM »
when you were talking about joulse what do you mean by velocity and speed? velocity = m/s and speed can mean the same thing witch would give you m^2 / s^2 witch is acceleration.

Umm.. somewhat...

 acceleration is caused by air-pressure behind the BB. The "faster" the air pressure "pushes" the BB, the more you got transferring to the BB as it flies away...


that is velocity not acceleration, which is the rate that something changes speed. So if we have a .20g bb and its going 300fps or 91.44m/s (google calculator) and it travels lets just say it travels 75m and we will take out the factor of air so the bb goes 75m in 1.2192s. so now we can get acceleration which can be calculated by (final velocity - initial velocity) / time = (0 - 91.44) / 1.2 = -76.2 so a=-76.2 now we can get force which is F = mass x acceleration so .2 * -76.2 = -15.24N so N(or F)= -15.24 so now we can get Joules which is equal to J = F x d or -15.24 * 75 = -1143J(or work) so that is the difference between acceleration, velocity, Force, and work or joules i understand that air flow is a large factor here but this is an extreem example (and yes the answers are negative because the bb is slowing down = (-))

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2011, 09:05:40 AM »
J man, ... lol, you lost me.

 Still though...

 It really doesn't matter, lol, I don't have to understand it...

 The point of all this was stating that FPS wasn't EVERYTHING ...
Metal and I pointed out, it's a matter of some importance, but  is highly dependent on what you want to do with it. ( the results you want in the end)
 It doesn't mean, anything is "absolutely" better the higher your FPS goes...

in fact, there are many instances, and I can prove it with my MP5, where lower FPS gave more accuracy and distance ( and a longer accurate distance) , than what it had being stock in the 400+ FPS range.

 But still... FPS isn't everything, or .. I suppose it's possible for it to be everything ( or the only quality of a certain brand , lol ) ... but most the time, it isn't.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 09:33:34 AM by Dragon »

porkchop

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2011, 01:34:26 PM »
I'm with you fellers on this one. Less is more. Many guys in my local club were slaves to velocity. They sank a small fortune into their guns trying to supe them up to 500fps or more, thinking they would shoot to the moon. Fact was, the more they did to them, the more problems they had. When they did work, a couple of them did see a wicked increase in distance while using .30's, but none of thier guns ran more than half a game before breaking. For me an m90 spring with .20g ammo is ideal for short range, and an m120 with 25.g's in the field. A little extra barrel helps too.
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Metal

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2011, 10:39:21 PM »
With a great airseal, an M110 should be all you'll need for field use. The point of air seal besides being more consistant is to allow you to get more velocity with a given BB while still using a weaker spring. This allows your battery to last longer, motor works less adding trigger response and ROF, and most other general internal parts last longer. Most properly airsealed guns I've seen can easily achive ~365fps with a .20g BB and only using an M100 spring. An M110 might even put you over the 400fps mark.

Ever hear of 'bore-up kits'? Essentially they're a slightly larger cylinder, cylinder head, air nozzle, and piston head set that seal the normally leaky points for the air and allowing you to compress more air in a given cylinder length. Bore up kits are another great way to increase FPS with using stock or weaker springs.

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2011, 12:44:31 PM »
yup,
cause airseal.. or the more "force" you are transferring to the BB is what counts.

 It increases FPS just by default... but, it's not the speed of the BB that carries it, it's the stored and transferred energy caused by more "force".
The speed comes, just by default in that instance.

 (maybe thats what Jman was talking about "velocity" ... I dunno. )

The difference is...

 If you didn't airseal, or bore up... and just put a heavier grade spring in... the spring itself is just slamming harder inside the gear box, it pushes the piston faster... with less chance of air escaping, but it still usually "leaks" anyways.
 But it really just speeds up the BB , with-out transferring maximum energy into the BB itself... meaning, it doesn't have as much force as it COULD have behind it.
It may get a slight increase in distance based off speed, but looses it's own momentum rapidly as well.

 As Porkchop pointed out...
51/50 guys, were like high FPS players... I know one of em had a AEG just right around the 550 FPS range, which he put a good amount of money in.
Not only did he not get the range he wanted, his shots were not in a tight spread at any real distance... you could say that was all the Hop-up's fault... I doubt that though, I think it was more inaccurate transfer of energy.
My m4, which was shooting 380 ( with a  crappy hop up ) , was shooting just as far, and more accurate... and that was before I had figured out to get a good airseal.  My shot pattern was closer together as well.
I do believe , it was a more consistent energy transfer is why I had better grouping and accuracy, after 150 feet.
He was also having to shoot a heavy weight BB, and I was getting the same or better results with a .25.

 Also, all that money, work, and "upgrading" did him little good... before half the day was over, the gun went down... done stripped his gears and broke his piston teeth.
 
 I do have a m100 in my MP5 SD6, and I need to chrono it on a good chrono... but I know I'm pushing at least 380 FPS with it, on a m100.  If I went M110 or M120... it'd be firing way to hot for most field limits easily...
But I have better trigger response, it does have a slight increase of ROF by default, I'd say I gained a 1/2 a BB increase every other shot... not much, but it does shoot faster... and it's less wear an tear on the internals...  which means my batteries last longer, and the AEG itself will last many years.