Author Topic: FPS does NOT = Range  (Read 19959 times)

ShootEmUp

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2011, 07:34:51 AM »
You guys make extremely painfully long posts. This topic only has two pages but seems like it should have twenty!

Joe

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2011, 10:33:32 AM »
Long posts, maybe.  Informative posts, always.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 10:36:02 AM by Joe »
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Metal

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2011, 04:30:30 AM »
There's too much to be explained in just one sentence.....

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2011, 12:22:43 PM »
I have a philosophy...

 If you don't have enough to say, don't say anything.  :)

 Everything needs clarification.  I don't care much for post that don't give alot of details or examples.

 I've always wondered why , especially young people , have an aversion to reading???

 Would the Deceleration of Independence have been so IMPORTANT to people, so INSPIRING, or so PROFOUND... if it merely said:

" We Hate English Rule, We are Now Free!" 

 No of course not, it needed more to it, more explanation, and direction for people not only of that time, but for any future generations that lived in the free USA long after the reasons WHY it was written.

 Flat out, if you want a one or two sentence reply , you usually will not get that out of me.  I like to cover alot of ground, when I'm on a topic... and even as long as my post are, I usually don't get everything I need to say out in one sitting. 
(I mean... Why ask, of something... if you didn't want a REAL response to begin with? )

 To me, if someone wishes to skip over what I type up, thats fine by me. Just because I offer something, doesn't mean it has to be accepted or agreed with.

 But I do worry about the "patience" factor... a bit.  If one isn't willing to have patience to read informative post,  do they have the patience to stay an active part of airsoft, or show dedication to the hobby in a long term sense? 




Now, what was the topic again?  ;D

j man 3

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2011, 01:05:36 PM »
what did joe just say?

ShootEmUp

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2011, 10:02:42 PM »
Long posts, maybe.  Informative posts, always.

Well, I can't disagree with that.

moondog

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2011, 02:03:32 PM »
nor can i.but dragon made a good point with accurate distances. Fps isnt every thing for exampel if u put a m150 in a CA u will get like maby 15 to 20 more fps in stead of tearing up ure  gear  box, just leave the regular ole stock spring that comes with it and get a new hop up new tight bore barrel  that helps with fps, range, and accuracy and then u are less likely to strip gears and u will get a better rof than what u would have with an m 150 not to even consider cost.Lets see u would pay 50 to 100 bux for a new motor 20 bux for a new spring and if u did it right then u would buy new gears thats any ware from 70 to 120 bux since it CA u half to get metal bushings and thats any ware from 10 to 30 bux a new piston with metal teeth on it that is any ware from 20 to 65 bux and a new battery9.6 votl for long batter life 50 to 100 bux so total of all that is roughly 305 bux depending on what u buy for 20 more fps u could just as easly spend 50 bux on a tight bore and new hop up and get  way better fps than 20 higher depending on what u buy take the cheaper easer route if u are gona do sompthin like that

Metal

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2011, 03:30:52 AM »
nor can i.but dragon made a good point with accurate distances. Fps isnt every thing for exampel if u put a m150 in a CA u will get like maby 15 to 20 more fps in stead of tearing up ure  gear  box, just leave the regular ole stock spring that comes with it and get a new hop up new tight bore barrel  that helps with fps, range, and accuracy and then u are less likely to strip gears and u will get a better rof than what u would have with an m 150 not to even consider cost.Lets see u would pay 50 to 100 bux for a new motor 20 bux for a new spring and if u did it right then u would buy new gears thats any ware from 70 to 120 bux since it CA u half to get metal bushings and thats any ware from 10 to 30 bux a new piston with metal teeth on it that is any ware from 20 to 65 bux and a new battery9.6 votl for long batter life 50 to 100 bux so total of all that is roughly 305 bux depending on what u buy for 20 more fps u could just as easly spend 50 bux on a tight bore and new hop up and get  way better fps than 20 higher depending on what u buy take the cheaper easer route if u are gona do sompthin like that

An M150 isn't only going to gain you 15-20fps. From the average FPS that CA has out of the box, they usually are setting right about 330fps. An M150 should be getting you at LEAST 500fps. So after the math, that's a 130fps jump.

A good motor can be had for ~$45-$85, spring $15-$20, gears $50, metal bushings $15, piston $20, battery $25. Using all the highest prices listed that only comes out to $215. Also, most tightbores only gain about a maximum of 10fps and the hopup will gain you NO fps unless it increases the seal between the barrel and the hopup unit which makes it part of your overall airseal.

Lastly, please try and use proper spelling and grammar on the forums man. It doesn't have to be perfect or always correct spelling, but 'bux' and 'u' are not words.

moondog

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2011, 02:33:07 PM »
sorry about the spelling  but i put an m 150 in  1 of my classic armys and it was shooting 345 fps with a 20 gram bb i dont know if u have tries it but i can eshure you that u wont get 500 maby with a 12 gram bb but not a 20

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2011, 04:06:00 PM »
sorry about the spelling  but i put an m 150 in  1 of my classic armys and it was shooting 345 fps with a 20 gram bb i dont know if u have tries it but i can eshure you that u wont get 500 maby with a 12 gram bb but not a 20

If you put in a m150, and only got 345 FPS, there is something seriously wrong in there somewhere.

 a m120 puts you at 375 FPS stock ( depending on brand) ... quite often, 380 in JG and Echo1 brands, about 360 in a few others, before you airseal and get better nubbing.

 I don't think a CA motor has enough muscle to pull a m150 , I could be wrong... but any CA motors I've had or came across were weak motors, more suited for lighter set ups.
Still, a m150 is a BEAST...

My best guess though, if the CA was actually making a full cycle with a m150... then you had MAJOR airbleed out of the piston. Nozzle was bad/mis-shapened , the O ring on the piston head not doing it's job... ( Cracked poly carb piston head?) SOMETHING along those lines.

 I used a m130 in the DMR , and I was shooting 495 FPS with it.  An M140 woulda put it over 500 FPS for sure, so Metal does know what he's talking about there.  We do this stuff all the time.

 I've heard others say, they dropped in a higher resistance spring, and had no or very little FPS gain... , but that means something else isn't right somewhere.  It has always been an issue , that only stood out when the springs were switched.

Reverandff7

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2011, 04:31:25 PM »
         Lastly, please try and use proper spelling and grammar on the forums man. It doesn't have to be perfect or always correct spelling, but 'bux' and 'u' are not words.
[/quote]

        Be easy now... i did notice this is a touchy subject. I do not have the greatiest spelling in the world but the point got thru bad spelling or not.
       On this subject though Metal, and Dragon both have a huge point on this... were not trying to shut you down Moon but m150 is a huge jump in FPS. I really think there must have been something wrong with your setup or it was installed incorrectly, but back to the point. If you think about it though even though you increase the FPS it just seems like it still goes the same distence but it just gets to that distance faster. Call me stupid(dont really call me stupid) but i do think that an m150 is a little overkill anyways considering my m120 in my jg gearbox got me 398-410fps last time it was crono'd. Anyways thats my $.03
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moondog

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2011, 08:59:55 PM »
well i feel stupid now because im obvsoually not making my point. I did get a new motor the matrix magnum but like some one said "depending on brand" ca does not have verry good hop up buckings in comparison to ather brand and they dont have tight boar barrels or verry good nozels oh maby i didnt mention that it was a sport line ca m15 a4  i hope that explains things thanks.

Metal

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2011, 10:14:08 PM »
The bucking and barrel still don't play that much in your FPS man. It's the main airseal that consists of the parts in the gearbox like the cylinder, cylinder hea, piston head, and air nozzle. I once put an M120 in an Echo1 SCAR and got 400fps. I also threw an M125 into a KWA SR12 and got 445fps. So there had to be a MAJOR flaw in your air seal. If I had to guess, and this is a huge shot in the dark, I think the o-ring on your piston head or something to do with your piston head not sealign very well at all inside the cylinder. Either that, or some of the teath on your piston were ground off or broken off to where the piston wasn't getting pulled back all the way to get the full compression of the spring. Some M150's have been known to get velocities around 550fps or even more. Springs as low as M110 will get you 350-360 and M120's usually get you up to the high 300's and sometimes over 400 as in Reverand's case.

The comment that the added fps doesn't seem to get you more range and just makes the BB get there faster means your bb's hit it's terminal velocity at a much lower velocity and you should now be shooting a heavier BB. The heavier BB will retain more of the initial velocity over greater distance than lighter BB's.

Reverand is right about the M150 being overkill. AEG's have a shorter life span when put under that much stress. Also, almost every field restricts the use of AEG's over 400fps unless it's a DMR, but even then the cut off for snipers is usually 550fps. I think trying to achive that kind of velocity by only swaping a spring and maybe the motor too is cheap to begin with but will quickly become more than you bargained for. Again I will get up on mine and Dragon's soap box and preach AIR SEAL. My G&G M4 is shooting a little under 400fps with only an M100 spring, but has an amazing airseal, so none of that air that is being compressed is be lost or wasted.

j man 3

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2011, 10:40:41 PM »
i dont no wat u talk bout

Dragon

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Re: FPS does NOT = Range
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2011, 02:32:23 PM »
 My suggestion would be to take it apart and see what's going on...

 I'm with Metal, I think your piston head or O-ring isn't doing it' s job.

I'm pretty sure that m150 has probably not let your piston cycle all the way back, and if it's polycarb or cheaply made, you might have some ate out teeth or broken ones...

 This is what i'd do... I'd get a m110 or m120 spring...
 Go to lowes, get a #14 Oring set, and replace that Oring on the piston head.
 
 Get rid of that M150... it's not going to give you any more , high FPS maybe, but it's not going to let ya shoot any light BB worth a crap, and as I said before it's over-kill.  That spring will eat up your motor fast, and tear up your internals.
 To get top performance out of a m150, you are going to HAVE to replace every part almost in that gear-box, and possibly the shell of the gear box as well... I promise you, it will not hold up long if you don't, and at that point, you might as well, just buy a new upgraded AEG for what you are going to spend replacing needed parts, with high end stuff.
 The CA sportlines, were never meant to have such a high velocity spring system in em. There's a reason they come with  High Speed Motors in em... even the gear ratio is for higher speed set ups. ( it's cheaper grade gears. )
 They simply weren't made to be high FPS or high velocity shooters in application. 
Most generally all "sportlines" are intended to be a reasonable and cheaper alternative to the more "expensive" varieties. 

 Now, that's not to say... they can't be upgraded, but not from stock to "extreme" upgrades. 

 Also, it isn't a "bad gun" to start with... stock performance should have gotten ya by easily. If not, I think it's be a manufacturing flaw, or you bought it used from someone that really didn't take care of it, or know how to maintain it.
 So, replacing the motor, with a high torque motor... but it still has light to high speed gears, should be alright for a m100 or a m110 , MAYBE a m120... maybe.

 Lets say you go a m110 ...
That, if your airseal is good... is going to place you in the 330-360 FPS range with a .25 and hop up engaged.  350 FPs is optimum generally for field grade AEG combat... your .25s will go as far distance wise, as if you had a 400 FPS set up.  Honestly, the "gain" from a higher FPS spring, is somewhat negligible... that 5-10 feet isn't really going to make much difference when you are actually in a simulated combat situation.
( It will be about 375-380 FPS, with Hop up off, with a .20 BB, not sure with a.25 with hop up off.)
 Anything from 340 FPS through 400 FPS is generally what you'd want out of a field grade primary anyways. There's no need for anything higher, unless you are going for something very specialized... like a DMR.
I am assuming, you just want your primary operational, and to perform well on the field, and not going DMR or Sniper rifle with it. ( it's the "wrong" model for one of those though.)

You max range on BB flight, if not doing the "robin hood arrow drop" , (that is aiming in a high arc...) will be about 275 feet distance. ( about 92 yards, or 91 meters ) ... your accurate distance ( the range you can most likely hit a 2x2 target 75% of the time ) will be around 60% of it's total flight distance, which would roughly be at 55 yards, or  150 feet away.
That means... INSIDE 150 ( roughly) feet, you are more likely going to hit what you aim at ... given if there is no wind, or the BB has no variations. Outside 150, up to your max distance... every 10 feet drops that probability of a sure hit by about 10-15 percent.  That is per single fired BB. ( which is why folks love FA outside... they can "walk" missed shots in, or send more, increasing a chance of a hit.)

MOST of your engagements in simulated combat are around 150-200 feet away outside anyways, or closer than that.
300 feet( 100 yards) or more... is usually too great of a distance, due to obstructions, wind/air distance, and concealment to accurately engage any OPFOR.  The BBs will not travel that far generally anyways. Not with a roughly 1% chance of accuracy or less.

The fact is, you can see alot farther, than any "normal" velocity AEG can shoot.  You can ( and people often do) shoot or try to at those distances... but sure hits are very rare, most of it is luck or perfect conditions if they do.

However, if you REALLY pay attention, good action "battles" and firefights, happen at much closer distances. 
Even Sniping Rifles of high FPS ratings, with heavier BBs, and DMRs still have trouble accurately hitting a target at 300 feet away.  The range, because it's a plastic round BB... just isn't there.
(It isn't real steel, the logistics are WAY different. )
The only "advantage" of a DMR or Sniping Rifle is they increase ACCURACY ( or are supposto) INSIDE the flight path.  They don't really get much more in total range... they can just increase the percentage of ACCURATE distance inside a set max range to begin with. 
Yes, they may get another 40 feet of MAX distance... maybe, or maybe more or a bit less... just depends. But the farther a BB travels, the less likely it is to accurately hit a target or OPfor. 

 So, back to the thing here...

Now that we've established, the BB will only go so far... how do you get max ACCURATE shot distance out of it?
First off... disregard FPS a bit... it IS NOT as Important as one is misled to "believe". 
Instead, focus on AIRSEAL ... ( which does increase FPS by default if you are still worried about it.) So a m110 with a base rating of 340 FPS with a .20 BB, in an AEG with a great Airseal, is going to get about 380 FPS out of it.
Engaging hop up... is going to bring that FPS down a bit ( it's friction and slows down your BB a bit) , but it puts "spin" on the BB, to IMPROVE it's flight capability.
Tighten the barrel bore, only slightly... I've found 6.01s not to be as good as a 6.03 ... I think , due to variations in BBs... the tighter bores, often provide too much "friction" even if it does focus the airflow more. ( Kinda defeats it's own purpose in a way.)

The Combo of those 3 things... will offer you a greater accuracy distance, at a decent and MANAGEABLE FPS rating.

 My example...
My Stock JG G36,( m120 spring) at a 380 FPS has  a shorter accurate distance, and shorter range , than my MP5 that has about 350 FPS. ( m100 spring)
The differences , besides the different spring... is the JG is still stock. I hadn't air sealed it, I hadn't put a nice bucking in it, It has a 6.08 barrel in it.  It shoot fine and all that as is...
But the MP5, I redone to increase distance and accuracy ... I dropped in a Tighter barrel, new nice bucking, and got my airseal as good as I can get without silicone the piston head. 
I shoot .25s outdoors in both, and my MP5 with less FPS, performs a bit better hands down.

The "speed" of the BBs in flight, negligible , or you can't notice it by the naked eye... though obviously the MP5 shots travel slightly a bit slower than the G36 BBs do. ( only can tell by the chrono though, lol.)

 So, in my opinion... you just tried to put "too much" behind the BB, relying on the spring to do the work for ya... which is a common mistake made. ( Just ask PorkChop , and the 51/50 guys, lol )
That and the internals, were never designed to take that kind of power or punishment, not out of a sportline, and I would say not out of most non-sportline models as well.

m150 springs, were made for 2 reasons:

1- for high end sniping rifles...
and
2- To sell to un-knowing FPS chasers.  :)

a m150.. is just flat out, too much spring... and not enough BB by default.